that is just sad. yet so many will say sexism does not exist
Pretty sure racism is also involved
Intersectionality
It’s as if, like, if you are a woman, and also in a disfavoured racial category, like, where they, uh, have overlap? Where they meet? It’s not the same as either one individually but its own, I guess nexus? I feel like there’s a better word for this
There’s a somewhat niche, but clever word for this particular combo - misogynoir
Coined by Moya Bailey in 2010
@[email protected] has it right, the term and idea is intersectionality.
apropos of nothing, intersectionality came out of critical race theory’s analyses of black womens outcomes in the legal system. the particular combination of oppression is literally the textbook example.
I think it’s called a “double minority”, but being a woman isn’t really a minority tho so I don’t know if theres a better term than that.
I feel bad for people who are black, lesbian, neurodivergent, and trans-woman… like that’s a quadruple minority.
The term is “intersectionality”. Conservatives really hated the term before they went all popeyed over “woke”.
but being a woman isn’t really a minority tho
It depends on the context. In a Victoria’s Secret fashion show? Yeah, probably not the minority. In a tech role, which women are systemically harassed and bullied out of pursuing? Yeah, women are probably a minority.
That’s not what minority means in the sociological context. Volume is mathematical. Poor people are a minority and there’s more of them than the 1%. Being a minority is about lack of power, prestige and property. And intersectionality is the more formal term, but ‘double minority’ gets the point across.
but being a woman isn’t really a minority tho
They certainly are in computer science
idk the point of your snark… people are still figuring out intersectionality. just give some education or stfu, dont condescend to people who are making an effort.
Also the person in the next door cubicle that microwaves fish for lunch.
Yeah, online gaming has all but confirmed to me that sexism is very alive and well.
This is also common in the guitar community. Some women can shred like mofos, and here comes Jim-Bob McGraw saying their playing is tracked etc., ad nauseum
What does it mean if their playing is “tracked”? Genuinely have no clue.
Like they use a pre recorded track and then make a video
Lip syncing for guitarists
ahh! that makes a lot of sense!
Can… Can I be the one sitting in that chair? (｡♡‿♡｡)
Sure there are. But then there are girls like Melle Baby who overshadow them not by only wearing underwear. Seriously, how do I get her out of my recommendations?
The funny thing is that in my experience female programmers usually have above average skills. I suspect it’s exactly because of this bias against women in tech. Where an average or below average dude can easily get by, this is much harder for women. As a result this bias acts as a kind of filter which results in female programmers being on average a little better than male programmers because all the average or below average ones get filtered out early.
I might add, in the hostile environment women may feel compelled to try harder at least to make a point. As in, “I’ll show you what I can do”.
Here’s hard data to match your experience:
“This paper presents the largest study to date on gender bias, where we compare acceptance rates of contributions from men versus women in an open source software community. Surprisingly, our results show that women’s contributions tend to be accepted more often than men’s. However, women’s acceptance rates are higher only when they are not identifiable as women. Our results suggest that although women on GitHub may be more competent overall, bias against them exists nonetheless.”
That’s probably just because women are smarter than men.
If she were a man, she’d be calling herself a polymath and everybody would be agreeing with her.
Hell, she’s be the meme for what a “real man” is instead of “gigachad.”
Not a perfect example, but I never see people question Henry Cavil’s nerd cred
Well gamers exist
Even more rage inducing these comments would be the same if she wasn’t conventionally attractive.
Fucking programmers need a solid clip around the ear.
Claims to be able to program in C++, Java
“Pfft yeah probably only in Hello World”
No that’s Elon Musk. He’s full of shit. This Victoria Secret model can actually do something.
Nah Elon is not that useless, he knows how to change twitter’s icon
I’m sure he got someone to do that for him
Probably replaced “twitter_logo.png” with the x logo under the same name in an AWS bucket lmao
That’s actually pretty hard to do with a codebase as large as twitter’s must be. You would have to locate the frontend code for each front end they have (website, app, etc). For each front end, there will be multiple Twitter logos (different resolutions, icon version, etc.). And then you would have to replace all of them and push the changes through their pipelines.
I doubt musk can do that.
It’s incredible to me that people actually think Elon writes code at Twitter
Elon is a novice when it comes to programming.
That is obvious to any programmer who saw his antics at the beginning of the Twitter takeover.
I mean, the guy was claiming the people who added the most lines of codes are the ones with the most skills and are the ones allowed to stay.
While an amateur programmer needs 100 lines of code, a good programmer can do the same in less than 10 lines. Which is faster, more performant, wastes less resources, and is easier to read afterwards.
It is literally the opposite of what Musks claims.
I was so glad we had a woman join our dev team some months ago. It’s more fun, more relaxed and we are able to get better results as we just cover a wider area of skills. People gatekeeping programming to include only men are idiots.
That poor girl. My gf’s only female teammate quit last month and i suggested she start grinding leetcode asap. Could you imagine being the only woman on a team? Pretty strong indicator that something is very wrong there.
Eh, my team is this way, but it’s because we’re aerospace adjacent which further compounds the problem. The only woman on our team is awesome and everyone gets along great. No one has an inflated ego or feels the need to one up each other though, which tends to be the root of the issue in my experience. Lots of tech bros feel the need to put others down, and see women as an easier target unfortunately.
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I think they meant men in specific in this case. I don’t know that there’s a huge problem of women being sexist against other women in tech.
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Are you suggesting it’s never about gender? There’s no such thing as sexism?
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If we want to reach parity, there’s gotta be some only woman at first.
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I don’t think it’s necessarily an indicator of something wrong with the team. it’s not easy to hire women in this industry, there just aren’t that many of them. A team of 10 people with 1 woman isn’t a red flag, it’s unfortunately average. If we’re talking about a bigger team that’s a different story.
It’s somewhat easier if you hire immigrants. there are definitely more women devs from Eastern cultures than Western cultures.
You say this, but I’ve been on 5 two-pizza teams over the course of my career, and there were other women on every team except the 2 most toxic ones. My current team at a large fortune 500 is majority women. I realize this may not reflect the entire industry, and some fields may be more male dominated than others. But there are a lot of women programmers out there. You just need to pay them well and give them a good work life balance and they’ll work for you.
I do agree that there’s more we could do to attract women. The company I work for is known for good WLB so I don’t think that’s the issue. We only hire senior people every few years and I’m pretty sure we only offer market value, so it’s possible that is a problem.
That said, I think we actually have more women on dev teams than most companies do. Especially the back end teams, maybe because we have a lot more women in the engineering leadership there. It’s our FE teams, which are led almost entirely by men, where we have fewer women. So if we did start hiring again I’d really like to see us bring in more women at the top.
I’ve interviewed around 20 people since I started working here and only 3 candidates were women-- I don’t have any control over who the recruiter sends our way, so I don’t really know what kind of bias could be going on there. So it’s possible that’s a problem too.
All that said, hiring good engineers is really competitive and I think we do struggle against FAANG-likes already. Even though we have a lot of good benefits we have a reputation for being super boring and proprietary (think enterprise software like Oracle, but not Oracle thankfully), which turns a ton of people off. So it’s not easy to attract talented people to start with.
It’s the same thing with any kind of diversity. Not an expert, but anecdotally, it seems to work better if you start adding diversity at the top. At least people at the senior+ level are generally more comfortable being outliers.
It’s annoying sometimes that people just assume that those who don’t work in tech are completely clueless about tech.
It’s also really funny to mess with people who assumes that.
as someone who works in tech, the number of people who think they know about tech and are actually completely full of shit dramatically outweighs the people who don’t work in tech and do know what they’re talking about. it can take a lot of energy to differentiate the 2 groups
dunning krueger is at play a lot, because most people use a computer every day and think they know everything about the internet because they know what DNS stands for and typed a command to flush the DNS cache this one time and it worked
This mirrors the experience of anyone who has studied linguistics.
Because everyone speaks at least one language fluently, they tend to assume that they understand how languages work, while having zero awareness of the fact that people have spent generations studying language and communication at the PhD level and that almost nothing about what we reflexively intuit about language actually holds true.
And I say this as a purely amateur linguistics nerd who does not claim any real formal expertise in terms of academic credentials.
I feel personally attacked lol
I feel dumb.
Same. And I’ve dated a Denise. Not easy to forget.
Yeah, you can’t really fake experience either. I recently joined a group of guys who clearly have had plenty of real world experience in the kinds of things I have, and just talking shop is refreshing. Haven’t had that ability for a long time.
If someone like her showed up in my team, and she’s able to talk the talk, I wouldn’t need any further validation and it’d be fun to hear the kinds of things she’s worked on.
Funnily enough, a woman is joining this all-guy group soon and I’m told she’s really good, so I get to do exactly that.
Don’t exhaust yourself, just assume that everyone who thinks they know about tech does. They’ll prove themselves wrong very quickly if necessary and you eliminate the risk of getting owned by a VS model.
except when you waste a crap load of time figuring something out only to realise that the person that says “it can’t be X” didn’t actually know that it was in fact X
… this is why you don’t argue with ISP support when they tell you to reboot your router: just do it; they don’t know that you’ve done that before you call them, and you telling them that’s not the problem is not going to change anything… it’s not because they don’t believe you specifically, it’s because they just can’t trust that everyone knows what they’re talking about
the same goes for most IT problems… it saves time in the long run to just assume people don’t know what they’re doing, because problems and systems are both complex and dynamic
Nah, ISP support (and many other support) just have a script they have to go through on every call.
I agree that rebooting your electronic device will fix a lot of issues.
But if those from support were actually any good, they would just reboot your router remotely.
that kind of reboot doesn’t do everything… turning the power off for 30sec completely discharges the capacitors in the power supply, as well as leaving time for things in the exchange to time out and reset
it’s a quick way of solving a mountain of issues, both client side and ISP side
some ISPs do have a script, some have better support than that but rebooting is a good strategy for a huge number of things because IT systems are just so complex
This is true, but also IT is a huge place there is an insane amount to learn. So really you spend an incredible amount of time in the “valley of despair”. Basically anyone who brags about their skills is VERY suspect. This person is an iOS developer, which is a great career, but the title of the article is phrased like she was at least Linus Torvalds. I’m sure she had little say in this, but whilst a reaction like this is never justified I can see why people made fun of it. Also it was clearly written by someone who has no idea what the words mean. Unless I’m mistaken MIPS is a cpu architecture, you can’t program in it. You can write machine code “for” it. So yeah I can see why people assumend these claims were lies.
They assumed these claims were lies because they are sexist.
I work in tech. I taught programming at university. And guys think I have no idea what I am talking about when I am the person correcting their f*ing babies homework. I had men come into my office asking me when the Sys Admin is back in office.
They assumed these claims were lies because they are sexist.
…which is stupid because you don’t pick MIPS and ObjectiveC if you’re just flexing your hobby skills. From the language choice alone I knew she was a developer.
MIPS is processing speed. Definitely needs programming
MIPS is a CPU architecture.
But it needs programming right?
Tech is a weirdly wide term. Does it only include IT? Engineering? Astrophysics?
A lot of work is “tech” as in technology related. It is inevitable to be clueless about a lot of technology, even when being the spearhead of development in one specific field.
Meanwhile you don’t need to tell the guys at the car-shop about programming, but they most likely know more about every non computer part of the car you just brought to them for repairs, because you were clueless about where that weird sound comes from.
Welding pipelines and building houses is tech.
Tech being used exclusively for electronics and computing is sort of weird, but idk what else to use.
Calling it the Tron industry would be fun, though.
Some fragile male egos in this thread. Looking forward to your complaints about the Barbie movie. Sad and pathetic.
Tbf, the original photo was already discounting her abilities. Saying “can program code” for a lead SWE is saying like “can do calculus” for physicist.
I manage a software engineering organization at an aerospace company and if I had to rank all my folks, the women would be disproportionately high on the list. It boggles my mind that anyone would discount someone’s programming ability because of their gender.
“This paper presents the largest study to date on gender bias, where we compare acceptance rates of contributions from men versus women in an open source software community. Surprisingly, our results show that women’s contributions tend to be accepted more often than men’s. However, women’s acceptance rates are higher only when they are not identifiable as women. Our results suggest that although women on GitHub may be more competent overall, bias against them exists” nonetheless.https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/
Oh, I remember reading that one (or an article about it). Frustrating.
I don’t get it either. I work with many, many really smart engineers. About half are women.
Half? How? I work at an aerospace electronics company and the male to female ratio is ridiculously high. I never understood why. It would be refreshing to work at a place with a more even ratio. The few women I work with are really smart and have moved up the management chain quickly.
I havent looked into it much but one reason seems to be stereotypes driving girls and women away from stem: Gender stereotypes about intellectual ability emerge early and influence children’s interests
A study on American kids but Im sure the same happens elsewhere. Its annotated and a great read just for the methods they used.
Since these stereotypes wont disappear soon we should let our kids know such ideas are made up and stuff so they wont buy them when exposed.
Depending on the culture in your country bias can sit pretty deep. I live and work in a country that’s very egalitarian on the surface. But people here have a strong and sometimes subconscious belief that: A women aren’t really intelligent but rather diligent and B women aren’t good in math/logic.
When you grow up with these biases as a girl you don’t have much interest in even trying to take up a hobby or even try to study something that is said to be only achievable by intelligent and highly logical people.
When you try it regardless people basically put you under a microscope and you have to proof constantly that you are somehow not what they believe is in your biology. It will surely show up someday when you make a mistake or don’t know about something.
I’m not in the tech field, but most of the people in my office are women and, as a man, it’s so refreshing not having to deal with other guys’ loud macho bullshit. I never liked it, it always made me feel uncomfortable.
I wonder if that’s the underdog effect at work
Where I am? Possibly, but I think it’s also possible that we have an environment that appreciates diversity, so talented people who have had to put up with crap other places tend to stick around here. People who don’t face any sort of discrimination might be as likely to leave as they would anywhere. Several years ago, we had a few consecutive years of downsizing, so the people who remained were all pretty sharp.
I really love the environment where I work. Brilliant people doing some very cool stuff, and most are really nice to deal with. I would enjoy having dinner with every single one of my employees.
Sure. I’ve known several crappy women programmers, but they get pushed out of the industry. The guys are more likely to fail upward.
Same in aviation
I don’t think it’s mostly gender… Programmers aren’t usually those that have won the genetic lottery, I can count on one hand the amount of drop dead women engineers I’ve met in my field, they definitely exist, but they are super rare.
If we leave out fields that revolve around beauty and adjust for intelligence required in the specific field of work i am not sure, if beauty is actually negatively correlated with engineering.
I don’t see a higher rate of beautiful people on the train to work, than i see at work. I just see more on the train, because there is more people overall.
Last time I checked, I didn’t type with my penis. But to be honest, I didn’t try yet. Maybe I’d be able to increase my performance.
It may have more to do with her being a model than with her gender. I’m not saying it didn’t influence the comments, just that being a model probably had more weight
You can’t change the looneys mind with reason. Don’t try
What?
Not on a site that is just a shittier version of reddit, anyway.
Anyone not hating a random woman they’ve never met is clearly mentally deranged /s
Or maybe I meant this isn’t about gender and a male model would get similar comments. But yeah say whatever suits your propaganda 😂
Those guys are pathetic
Whenever I see someone taking down these absolute bottom of the barrel incel dork on social media, it just feels like shoo-ing a squirrel off the bird feeder. Just not even worth taking action
Basically they’re scared and intimidated. Here is a person who is beautiful and intelligent and has made something of herself and that highlights their own inabilities.
I think sexism is only part of the problem, they’d have a similar response to a male model who had a successful tech career.
I’m not sure tbh. This reeks of a regular techbro sexism, not a regular insecurity. Intelligent male model will be a point of envy, not hate
That’s certainly a part of the problem here, but let’s be honest: how often do tabloids or other low effort media publish such “inspirational” stories that turn out to be absolute bullshit. Like the 10 year old who invented some quantum stuff, but actually his father just let him play around with some tools in the lab.
This story here unfortunately fits exactly this pattern, but apparently just happens to be true.
Even when they’re not factually bullshit, the rhetorical framing is often ick. I’m disabled, and something that I, and a lot of other disabled people hate is “inspiration porn”. It’s patronising as hell, and most frustratingly, if you try to call it out, people get extra offended because they refuse to see how otherising and infantilising people isn’t the same as advocating for them.
I’m involved in technology and race mountain bikes on the side. Other than the occasional “it must be nice to be fit” comments from the neckbeard techbros, they’re not as openly hostile to me as they are to women who are in tech. There is definitely a strong sexism part of the equation.
I’m sorry to tell yuu this bro, but nobody gives a shit about mountain bike racers. I don’t think a bunch of poorly socialized boys who were proficient with computers were ridiculed by mountain bike racers when they were young. Good looking people on the other hand…
What kind of school did you grow up in to not have the nerds vs athletes click battles?
What’s the point of your comment? “There’s sexism, sure, but it’s only 90% sexism!” Why downplay what’s going on? How often do you SEE THIS happen with men shitting on men? Come the fuck on.
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Not everything needs to be fact checked.
Whether this is real or fake, it doesn’t matter. I’m never gonna encounter her in any way, there is no relevance in it. If I read stuff like that, I think “good for her” and move on.
What’s the point of being super sceptic of something that has no impact on you?
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It’s not necessarily being “scared and intimidated”.
We’re just conditioned that when someone at the top of their field talks about their hobbies / interests / skills outside that field, it’s very often a very shallow level of skill. Why? Because being at the top of your field in almost anything takes a lot of focus. You don’t really have time to develop other skills / hobbies.
There are countless examples. Actors or athletes who release music albums that are just awful. Celebrities who write really amateurish novels which would sink into obscurity if they didn’t have a famous person’s name attached.
Making the problem worse, often the entourage of those rich and famous people is filled with sycophants who heap praise on the celebs. That leads them to believe that they really are good at their hobbies.
Then there’s the fact that the world is so hungry for celebrity gossip and special interest stories that “journalists” often get a tiny nugget of information and use it for the basis of an entire article. So, if a celebrity mumbles something about liking their backyard barbecue, it will spawn countless articles about how that celeb is an expert at the art of BBQ, they might release their own branded BBQ sauce, their skills were endorsed by some celebrity chef, etc.
So, given all that, it’s perfectly reasonable to be skeptical when you hear something like “This [insert celebrity type here] can [insert hobby here] like an expert!”
You know damn good and well that if this was a hot dude that could do these things, the comments towards them wouldn’t be nearly as hostile.
This is a complete strawman, and pretty much completely wrong. If you look at the heroes of the IT community, Linus Torvalds, Steve Wozniak, Gabe Newell, or the lesser known Terry A. Davis. These are not conventionally attractive people living a glamourous lifestyle.
This does not mean this post is not sexist, but the strawman of “if this was a male they would idolise him” is just complete horseshit, and in no way better than assuming a “pretty little woman” couldn’t do programming.
You’re moving the goal posts. I said if this was a hot dude the comments wouldn’t be nearly as hostile. Both of us know this, but you’re busy insisting these incels are only making these comments because the media or some bullshit. You know they’re doing it because they’re jealous and you’re no better for trying to justify their bullshit.
But didn’t you move the goal posts first?
No. I made a pretty clear statement that if this was a hot dude, the commenters wouldn’t be as hostile. That’s setting the goal posts. Saying I said they’d be praising the man is moving them.
And you made that statement on a post that was about a different statement.
“This [insert celebrity type here] can [insert hobby here] like an expert!”
The original post doesn’t say “like an expert”, but you continued to create a strawman argument focused mostly on this aspect.
No, no. The vast majority of people who are interested and good at computer science are men or male. It is the truth. The world is also replete with women who say things like this, but basically can only write hello world to the console.
But exceptions exist and people who don’t fit the common stereotype absolutely deserve to be allowed to do what they’re good at.
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Lol, I’m sure. They invented the integrated circuit, the instruction set, and most modern day programming languages. But all of their achievements were hidden by mean, jealous men.
Typically, smart and powerful people have the wherewithal and know-how to not let that happen, let alone en masse. That’s part of why we might consider them smart.
The reality is that there were many female computer operators. Engineers and inventors, not so much. A few exceptions, but they were, as I have said, the exceptions.
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Grace Hopper literally invented the first software compiler.
If you dismiss software engineering as a form of engineering, then you have no qualifications to be an engineer and no business even commenting.
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Why do you think the human computers weren’t the majority of people creating the first electronic computers?
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So you learned enough about the history of computing to make claims like this, but not enough to know that practically all the first programmers were female and some even pioneered theory, techniques, and languages? For example Grace Hopper, who you are erasing from history here.
I call bullshit. Either you purposely ignore these facts, or your sexism prevented them from being remembered when you learned them.
Don’t forget Ada Lovelace, the first computer engineer and the namesake of the Ada programming language.
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The person who coined the term software engineer was a woman.
There is a reason several people have pointed out facts to you. You clearly want to deny the fact that women were very much a part of computer ENGINEERING
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Yeah very true, and credit where credit is due. The majority of “computers”, when that was a job title, were women who were very good at running quick calculations.
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I’m not so sure I’d call them “mathematicians”, but they were very good at what they did.
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Motherfucker, women used to be the vast majority of programmers. A woman was the one who led the team that wrote the code to get to the moon. She also coined the term ‘software engineer.’ So don’t give us that bullshit that the vast majority that are good at computer science are men. And no, the world is not replete with women who claim they can choose but can only print to the console. Where the fuck have you come across that?
People like you are the main barrier for women getting into programming.
Absolute moron. I knew damn-well that you were going to mention Hamilton at some point because every simping imbecile does. Every single exception to the general rule, that males are more interested in IT in general, is proclaimed across the world as though it disproves said rule. Look, these women are smart, capable and deserve all the success they’ve attained. That does not mean there is not a general rule.
People who are generally smart and capable should not care about my approval to enter into programming. They’d do it because they love it, not for someone’s approval. Frankly, if some woman doesn’t enter into programming because of something some rando like me said online, I very much doubt she was much interested in it to begin with.
She a boss fr
She makes a valid point, but on the other hand, she causes funny feelies in the incels’ pantsal region.
I’d be impressed by anyone who could “Hello, world” in MIPS
ITT: basically a reddit comment section on a post with any woman.
Guess the “it feels like Lemmy is more positive” days are over. So it goes.
What are you talking about? Literally every post with more score than yours is positive and mocking the bigots in the post.
If anything a statement like this reminds me of reddit where <1% has voted and commented but some bad takes are already attributed to the other 99%. (But the good comments are also way older than your post…)
ITT: people getting upvoted for whining about posts from fragile males, while the few such posts are downvoted to oblivion.
So people keep mentioning downvoting…I’m new to Lemmy but have chosen Reddthat for now. It doesn’t not show or allow downvoting I assume? Does this thread truly give you the option to downvote?
Some instances don’t allow downvoting. This means, if you are on such an instance, you cannot downvote, not even stuff on other instances.
Yeah there’s a surprising amount of 💩 takes in the comments… considering this blew up and the type of community it is, I’d guess the majority of normies are here too
Check out different instances, I feel like it pretty much depends on where you are. lemmy.world certainly feels a bit more like current reddit than other instances.
Every top comment is positive, are you deliberately sorting by controversial?
The post looked different 9 months ago.
i guess left wing extremists and right wing extremists finally found eachother
Ah, good lol horse shoe theory. Because wanting people to be treated equally and have Healthcare is totally equivalent to wanting a white ethnostate and calling for the murder of queer people.
Lol ah yes, the eternal clash between left-wing extremists who believe women are people and right-wing extremists who disagree. Maybe someday they will set aside their differences
What a waste
Yeah it must suck to be able to travel the world and do photoshoots for a living, while also being a software engineer on the side (probably a better one than those commenters too)
