This shit has seriously gone on too long. People who continue to cling to the “10,000 dead crushed by tanks hosed i to the gutter” bs are cranks. It’s jews control the banks, chemtrails, the earth is flat, the moon isn’t real level of crank shit and unless you’re feeling very indulgent and someone is asking in good faith it can be dismissed as equally serious to that kind of crank shit.

  • astreus@lemmy.mlEnglish
    112·
    23 days ago

    My favourite bit is when Wikipedia itself is like “the 10,000 claim was made by one dude who basically instantly retracted it and claimed the still unplausibly high number of 2,000”.

    Also, the Tank Man photographer talks about the protestors throwing molotov cocktails and beating police officers to death.

    And the whole “China pretends it didn’t happen”…they have official death estimates. 300 people. The US have their own estimate. 900 people. But no matter the number, it was much fewer than the protest leaders had hoped for.

    To quote one of the protest leaders “What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes” - Chai Ling

    By the way, that person is alive and well running a firm that fires people for not praying at work.

    • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
      85·
      23 days ago

      the protestors

      It needs to be made clear; The insurgents were a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the student movement, a few hundred, maybe a few thousand people out of hundreds of thousands of activists across the country. They were not at all representative of the '89 protest movement. Chai Ling wasn’t a protest leader, she was just some CIA backed asshole and she and her goons bullied their way up to the PA and took it over. They did not represent the student movement or Tianamen Square. It must be stressed that the movement was mostly in opposition to Dengist market liberalization. Folks wanted to preserve communism against marketization of the economy. A secondary factor was a desire to create a more permissive social environment that reflected communist views of gender equality and allowed young people more freedom to express themsevles. Again, not because of government repression, but because they viewed contemporary chinese culture as very staid and conservative in a way that was not in line with their communist values.

    • SacredExcrement [any, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      45·
      23 days ago

      To quote one of the protest leaders “What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes” - Chai Ling

      By the way, that person is alive and well running a firm that fires people for not praying at work.

      Wait, you mean the ebil CCP didn’t send her to a camp??

      • RyanGosling [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        14·
        23 days ago

        The army psyop unit released an edgy trailer for their unit, and there was a segment where the text says something like “we are behind it all” and it shows a montage of world conflicts, including the Tiananmen protests. Of course, that itself could be a psyop to make people paranoid, but it’s pretty obvious that competing superpowers would hop on each other’s conflicts.

    • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      34·
      23 days ago

      Chai Ling is great, there is a lot more from that interview where she just openly displays what an unhinged monster she is, like when she adds to that part that the students are stupid and unworthy of her sacrifice, which is why she plans to escape (and though she didn’t leave quite as quickly as she seemed to plan, she did leave quickly enough that she wasn’t around for when the “massacre” would have happened)

      Oh! And it’s also important to note that it was her interviews with western outlets following fleeing the conflict that produced the “tanks mulching corpses” story

      • ssj2marx@lemmy.mlEnglish
        19·
        23 days ago

        Sounds to me like she was an early example of a Yeonmi Park, where you get famous for a thing that everyone is primed to hate and then every time you talk about it you have to one up the previous time you talked about it.

    • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
      34·
      23 days ago

      To quote one of the protest leaders “What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes” - Chai Ling

      This only works when the people also think it was unjustified.

      Every revolution in history has one of these instigating moments, including colour revolutions. Most recently Ukraine’s moment in 2014 was the sussy sniper moment that has all kinds of evidence pointing towards far right shooters being involved and covered up. Even the February Revolution had a moment like this when the palace guard shot all the unarmed protestors.

      The key point is that it’s unarmed protestors that didn’t deserve it. When it’s a situation where people understandable grit their teeth and say “yeaaaaaah but the protestors hung cops and burned them alive” yikes-1yikes-2yikes-3 it doesn’t work.

      The people need to be enraged and believe the government NEEDS to be overthrown for it to work, if people think the protestors kinda brought it on themselves they don’t enrage in the same way. The CIA and fascists pull these false flags off all the time, I can’t think of a single incident in history where the left has.

      • RyanGosling [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        9·
        23 days ago

        The USSR had ties with unions and communist parties and leftist terrorists. But I don’t think they ever planned any false flags to help those movements. Like the Italian militants supported by the USSR were doing bombings and killings in response to the mob and fascists who attacked first. I don’t think even westerners have claimed the USSR faked any terrorist threats to bolster their factions. “Whataboutism” is used by liberals to cry about leftists because all they had to do was put up a mirror. Not saying intelligence agencies never lie, but it seemed that spreading propaganda to a diverse country whose minorities suffer was sufficient

        But there have been some claims of false flags. For example, a KGB defector claiming that the KGB planted a story about the Vatican knowing about the holocaust and not doing anything about it.

      • ssj2marx@lemmy.mlEnglish
        8·
        23 days ago

        The people need to be enraged and believe the government NEEDS to be overthrown

        And like, the vast majority of people in China at that time had seen their life spans double and gone from living in old style rural farmhouses to communes and apartment complexes with a then-modern quality of life. It’s no wonder that the majority of protestors were against Deng’s liberalizations, they had lived the success of the Mao-era economy and didn’t want to fuck things up - Chinese people alive now would probably go to bat to defend the Dengist economic system in a similar way if the CPC signaled massive reforms.

    • xkyfal18@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
      22·
      23 days ago

      lol Chai Ling, the famous empathetic and charismatic leader who was killed by the SeeSeePee!!! Look up what she said about her fellow students,THE CCP AUTHORITARIAN BOTS DON’T WANT YOU TO KNOW THIS!!!11!!11!

    • FreudianCafe@lemmy.mlEnglish
      18·
      23 days ago

      Suppose it was 5000 deaths. You would still need to do it 200 times to match the amount of ppl usa killed in a single war.

  • CoolerOpposide [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    102·
    23 days ago

    The only famous video/image 99.9% of all Americans see of it is tank man NOT getting run over by a tank, and even then so many of them will be like “um yeah you don’t want to know what happens after the video cuts off” but the full video DOESNT CUT OFF AND HE JUST WALKS AWAY UNHARMED.

    Meanwhile in America if you google “NYPD running over protestors” your results will be like:

    -NYPD running over protestors May 2024

    -NYPD running over protestors February 2024

    -NYPD running over protestors December 2023

    -NYPD running over protestors October 2023

    -NYPD running over protestors March 2023

    And so on and so on, and that’s just in one city

  • BelieveRevolt [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    71·
    23 days ago

    Pretty much everything people believe about it isn’t true, but nobody cares because it’s aimed at bad country shrug-outta-hecks

    I’m still shocked they actually admitted Saddam’s shredder wasn’t real.

  • FunkyStuff [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    69·
    23 days ago

    I think one of the interesting things about Tinyman and the tankman picture in particular is the mass psychosis (sorry if there’s a better non-ableist term I currently can’t conjure it) that the man in the picture was ran over by the tank. It’s a claim that can be categorically disproven by 15 seconds of video. But it contradicts the hegemonic narrative, so it’s like the video isn’t real, the vibes are more real than hard evidence that this man was allowed to just walk.

      • RyanGosling [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        18·
        23 days ago

        There was a “guide” on how to debate tankies on the neoliberal sub. Basically, a tankie will likely cite some author or newspaper article or academic or etc., but if you can’t find any information about that from the Wikipedia article of the related topic, then it’s best to assume the tankie is lying and wasting your time.

      • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        8·
        23 days ago

        Actually, the massacre wasn’t happening on Tiananmen Square, but next to it.

        I’ve seen this used as a gotcha – most notably by the Columbia Journalism Review (lmao). Though correct, it’s an extremely weak argument.

        • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
          2·
          23 days ago

          Even then they’re still calling it a massacre. Like i am 100% certain some number of uninvolved civilians were deliberately shot and killed by pla troops who believed them to be insurgents, but as you drill down and drill down and drill down there’s no moment where the pla fired en masse and indiscriminately on people

          Like, pure armchair general math, but from the pictures it looks like if the 280 number is accurate then probable 5-10% of the people killed were pla soldiers and cops. Which, like; i don’t think that has happened in the us. I don’t think there’s ever been an incident in the us where 10% of the people killed during a protest were soldiers or cops. Like, idk, maybe yes? But that would be in a case where 1-3 cops where killed, idfk.

          Like, this isn’t just a small amount of violence relative to the scope of the movement, it’s a kind of violence that doesn’t have clear parallels in the us. Right wing protestors attacked and killed an army troop convoy and then the military fought them and stopped the. This isn’t kent state, where the army deliberately rolled up and killed a bunch of students, the armed pla troops came in specifically to stop the insurgents.

          • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
            3·
            22 days ago

            Beijing Municipality has checked and double-checked all the figures from the Martial Law Command, the Public Security Ministry, the Chinese Red Cross, all institutions of higher education, and all major hospitals. These show that 241 people died. They included 23 officers and soldiers from the martial law troops and 218 civilians. The 23 military deaths included 10 from the PLA and 13 from the People’s Armed Police. The 218 civilians (Beijing residents, people from elsewhere, students, and rioters) included 36 students from Beijing universities and 15 people from outside Beijing. [29] [30]

            https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/#fn29

          • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
            2·
            23 days ago

            This isn’t kent state, where the army deliberately rolled up and killed a bunch of students, the armed pla troops came in specifically to stop the insurgents.

            I think this way of framing it to libs – a focus on the facts themselves, and how deadly violence by the protesters led to a deadly response – is better than focusing on what is or isn’t a “massacre.” It’s easy to get bogged down in semantics and hypotheticals when talking about if certain facts fit a definition. The facts themselves should take center stage, and keeping the discussion focused on them leads people to question whether “massacre” is fitting on their own.

            • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
              6·
              23 days ago

              I specifically use “insurgents” because that’s what they were - cia backed insurgents trying to escalate who attacked unarmed soldiers and bured them alive. They weren’t part of the protest movement, they were parasites trying to hijack it. The protest movement was mostly Maoist, like there were all kinds of issues being raised, but it was primarily a Maoist movement protesting Dengist market liberalization. The Insurgents weren’ty part of that.

              • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                5·
                23 days ago

                That’s a good point, too, though maybe something like “instigators” or “hijackers” would be even better. I’m trying to put on my lib hat to see what would cause unproductive debates over language, and “come on, there wasn’t an insurgency” seems like an easy one to avoid.

                The George Floyd protests were also recent enough and popular enough to provide some good examples of how many protests don’t involve everyone acting in lockstep, and their very nature invites all sorts of people to try and steer the crowd to their preferred ends.

    • BeamBrain [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      39·
      23 days ago

      Oh god this entire thread is full of gems

      These people are not socialists. It’s all just right wing agitprop. It’s extremely obvious.

      I assume hexbear is just the russian troll factory.

      I can read Russian and I sometimes read Russian media and it uses almost exactly the same topics for their people. There is a new one that they started to repeat recently and it’s that Zelensky is an illegitimate president, because his term has ened.

      It’s weird that those forums are in English, reading the insane takes and rhetoric. I also noticed many of the accounts are just prolific posters, making the community seem small to me. Also saw an account with a trans flag, which is surprising they would accommodate such a person or such a person would have those weird views on lemmygrad.

      The utility is that they use hexbear and .ml as intro exercises before they promote the trolls to Facebook or reddit.

      Last part is true and even more insane/sad because these people are all terminally online gossip mongers that Pol Pot would have immediately executed.

      You own a computer? You don’t work in the fields? You wear glasses?

      Yep, literally executed.

      • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
        44·
        23 days ago

        Zelensky is an illegitimate president, because his term has ened.

        Isn’t that like… The basics of how a democratic mandate works?

        Not that I’ve ever seen it as a topic here but still. If Rishi Sunak continues as president PM beyond his term time I’m calling him illegitimate. In fact I’m calling him illegitimate now and forever because we literally never got to vote for the fuck. He has/had no mandate.

        EDIT: Fuck me libs jump to the dumbest conclusions over the smallest shit.

      • fox [comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        36·
        23 days ago

        There is a new one that they started to repeat recently and it’s that Zelensky is an illegitimate president, because his term has ened.

        Help me out what’s it called when an elected official doesn’t give up power after their term ends

      • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
        25·
        23 days ago

        If anyone still remembered the Brady Bunch I’d make a joke comparing the “Marsha Marsha Marsha!” line to “Russia russia russia!”

        Obsession with a plot!

        • CarbonScored [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
          7·
          23 days ago

          The scary concept is the idea that either Facebook or Reddit is a promotion!

          Xi please don’t promote me just leave me as a lowly Hexbear-only peon xi-god-emperor

      • RyanGosling [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        13·
        23 days ago

        There is a new one that they started to repeat recently and it’s that Zelensky is an illegitimate president, because his term has ened.

        Never seen this on here lol. But you’d think these dweebs would be hand wringing about term limits.

        Last part is true and even more insane/sad because these people are all terminally online gossip mongers that Pol Pot would have immediately executed.

        I love this because they somehow concluded we support Pol Pot and not that he was a US/China backed psychopath. They always talk about Pol Pot but they never talk about who kicked his ass and ended his genocide. It just stopped out of magic.

  • 2812481591 [any, it/its]@hexbear.netEnglish
    49·
    23 days ago

    “He maybe wasn’t ran over by a tank, but lets not discount the possibility that we actually universe shifted, and we’re originally from a timeline where I was always correct. look up the Mandela effect.”

  • CarbonScored [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
    48·
    23 days ago

    Pretty much all lib claims about it can be debunked by two minutes on Wikipedia, which is generally a pretty anti-China source itself. Goes to show they’ve done literally zero research.

  • Tripbin [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    47·
    23 days ago

    I wish I still had the screenshot from a few years ago when they went really big on pushing against censorship by spamming the post and damn near everything on the front page was that pic and it stayed that way for days all while the comments were full of people saying reddit won’t let you see this as it was damn near the only thing you could see on reddit. Now they repeat it every anniversary.

    What do we really expect from a site who’s main protest against changes to it was spamming John Oliver memes and then wondering how they lost.

  • Crowtee_Robot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    43·
    23 days ago

    The Tank Man was actually Bruce Banner and the “massacre” was an unfortunate Hulk rampage that the Chinese government covered up because S.H.I.E.L.D. wasn’t ready to reveal The Avengers to the world yet.

  • PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    43·
    23 days ago

    It’s truth or falsehood frankly does not matter to a lot of people who believe this. It confirms their world view and emotionally feels truer than the actual events themselves, which are well documented if they should care to know.

  • WilsonWilson [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
    39·
    23 days ago

    So your friend got run over by a tank. Why should I care?

    I would have just moved out of the way easy peasy.

    When the tank police tell you to do something you should just comply like any law abiding citizen.

  • homhom9000 [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    39·
    23 days ago

    “China is bad country that massacred people who wanted democracy. I also hope the police can shut down the encampments at universities because it’s illegal”

    I wish liberals at least formed some type of ideology instead of regurgitate half baked ideas they heard somewhere.