I’m not banned yet because the admin’s at least a bit sympathetic, but I sure as hell don’t think 90% of the group’s gonna want to speak to me after this. I told them I’m voting and campaigning for a 3rd party candidate who is anti-Israel and pro-trans and explained that I could not in good conscience vote for Biden after his blatant and willing complicity in genocide. Here are some of the arguments I encountered in response to that:

  • “Not voting for Biden makes it easier for Trump to win, and Trump will genocide trans people in addition to Palestinians. Therefore anything you do supports genocide, so you might as well support less genocide.”
  • “Your trans friends will all know that you’re functionally anti-trans.” (I’m sure this would be a shock to my trans friends in my org, all of whom have made it clear they will also not vote for Biden)
  • “Trump would genocide Palestinians even harder.”
  • “Biden wants to stop the genocide, but the Republicans won’t let him.”

Some choice quotes:

Have pride in your self centeredness, I guess.

Choosing someone who you know cannot win, especially as they’re not the chosen candidate, is only symbolically different than choosing apathy.

It’s just objectively how it works in this system. There is no non vote.

And it is most depressing your friends here at home are not important enough to check one box for.

And this:

[The Palestinian] genocide is going to happen regardless of the two. But the one that’s happening here, that one can be stopped. And you refuse to do anything about it because you think you’re so much better.

You’re right about one thing, though. I do think I’m better than people who give their endorsement to running over Palestinian children with tanks.

And I’m better than people that choose two genocides at once, I guess. If we’re ranking each other. I’d laugh if it wasn’t stupid.

  • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    711·
    5 months ago

    1. Unless you live in a swing state, it doesn’t matter who you vote for. And unless everyone in the discord lives in a swing state, it doesn’t matter who they vote for either.

    2. If your org has Palestinians, tell the people in that discord you’re not voting for someone who ordered the deaths of your comrades’ extended families. As far as Palestinians are concerned, Biden murdering their extended family is fucking personal. Nobody’s fucking voting for some dude who killed their family and friends.

    Don’t argue with principles because liberals have none.

  • GalaxyBrain [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    61·
    5 months ago

    I’ve been baiting people into posting paragraphs of the good things they think Joe Biden did and then replying I don’t read the rhetoric of genocide collaborators. Do It at home. It fucking rules.

    • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.netEnglish
      64·
      5 months ago

      It’s always how liberals fall into fascism

      “We have to support the nazis to stop the commies”

      “We have to support this dictator to stop the Soviets”

      “We have to back the neolibs to stop Reagan”

      “We have go support the war on terror to stop Bush”

      On, and on, and on

      • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        12·
        5 months ago

        Liberals don’t exist. They are all just crypto fascists. Liberal ideology is self contradictory and always shifting because it is not real. It is just a disguise for people who want to say they are not fascists while doing fascist things.

  • sub_ubi@lemmy.mlEnglish
    57·
    5 months ago

    The best way to push a candidate left is to promise you’ll vote for them no matter what

  • AlicePraxis [any]@hexbear.netEnglish
    53·
    5 months ago

    unless you live in a swing state your vote is symbolic either way. I guess these people would prefer you symbolically vote for a genocidal piece of shit

    even if you do live in a swing state good on you for voting based on your principles. the whole “voting for third party candidates is useless because they can’t win” is such horseshit. motherfucker, you’re the reason why they can’t win. they’re electable if you vote for them…

    • qaopjlll [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      261·
      5 months ago

      Your vote is symbolic regardless, swing state or not your vote is not going to decide the election. Which makes voting for someone solely to prevent the other candidate from winning utterly pointless.

  • Dessa [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    49·
    5 months ago

    Not voting for Biden makes it easier for Trump to win,

    Not voting for Trump makes it easier for Biden to win.

    and Trump will genocide trans people in addition to Palestinians. Therefore anything you do supports genocide, so you might as well support less genocide."

    If either side supports genocide, supporting either side supports genocide. What I am doing is refusing to support genocide.

    “Your trans friends will all know that you’re functionally anti-trans.” (I’m sure this would be a shock to my trans friends in my org, all of whom have made it clear they will also not vote for Biden)

    My Palestinian friends appreciate that I’m not functionally anti-palestine. By not voting for Trump, I am not voting for trans genocide.

    “Trump would genocide Palestinians even harder.”

    How exactly?

    “Biden wants to stop the genocide, but the Republicans won’t let him.”

    Can you be more specific?

  • Evilphd666 [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    47·
    5 months ago

    Are they completely ignorant of the trans genocode happening under Biden?

    Third parties are an option… just saying doing the same over and over again expecting differnt results / harm reduction well…

    The next is going to be a 4 year term. Both are term limited out. Midterms usually bad for the guy in office’s party. So what happens after 2028? Clean election. Possible 2 terms up for grabs. You think after 4 more years of DaBiden people are going to want another round of Joe Biden’s Democrats?

    Or you could skip the wait and vote 3rd party.

  • GenderIsOpSec [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    42·
    5 months ago

    “Evil is evil, Stregobor,” said the witcher seriously as he got up. “Lesser, greater, middling, it’s all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I’m not a pious hermit. I haven’t done only good in my life. But if I’m to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

    Sapkowski has some good takes, for a pole poland-cool

    fucking horrifying lack of empathy from people going “Well they can have a little genocide, as a treat so we wont have any.” which isnt even fucking true. Biden was in power when Roe v Wade was taken down. Trans rights are being demolished all around and the democrats do nothing.

    Fuck these people.

  • SnowySkyes [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    41·
    5 months ago

    “Your trans friends will all know that you’re functionally anti-trans.” (I’m sure this would be a shock to my trans friends in my org, all of whom have made it clear they will also not vote for Biden)

    Boy I sure do LOVE being used as a non-consensual pawn in a game of petty internet arguing.

  • Kiagz [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    40·
    5 months ago

    Liberals alway seem to conveniently forget that trans Palestinians exist, and that the biggest danger to trans people living in Gaza currently is not Hamas, but the fascist, genocidal settler state that “lesser evil” Biden is doing everything possible to support

    • ExtimateCookie [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
      27·
      5 months ago

      They always like to think of Palestinians and maybe all Arabs as this monolithic mass, instead of a culture that also contains a lot of diversity. I live in a Muslim country and there’s a lot of diversity. There are trans people, and openly gay people, progressives, atheists, feminists, etc. Even between Muslims with traditional values there’s a lot of disagreement.

      • Kiagz [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
        18·
        5 months ago

        Yeah, and western mainstream media only ever acknowledge that these groups exist in Arab countries when they can use them to pinkwash imperialist actions such as sanctions, coups and invasions

  • Justice@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
    39·
    5 months ago

    I live in an “important” swing state. PA. Seems to end up deciding most of the elections for the last couple decades.

    Joe Brandon hasn’t “earned” my vote. And honestly until Oct last year, sure, I probably would have “lesser evil” waddled my ass over and pushed the button for him. But when he came out on Oct 8 and lied about beheaded babies (a lie which was literally known FROM THE JUMP to be a lie) and promised to support Israel in anything to come, well the chances of me voting for his geriatric genocidal ass dropped to zero within about a week.

    I’m obviously not justifying any of this stuff, but let’s say he let the IOF bomb totally confirmed and proven (publicly released intelligence afterward to prove it) militant sites for a week. Then said “ok, you killed all the guys who broke in, you destroyed a bunch of their shit, you’re done. Give them all the people you have detained and get back all the Israelis who were taken on Oct 7.” Again, not saying this would be justice. But I think this basic scenario is what the world broadly expected. A totally disproportionate retaliation, thousands murdered, then resolve things back to the status quo as it existed Oct 6. Again, I think this would’ve been bad. But we wouldn’t have a genocide and STILL this ongoing ethnic cleansing and mass starvation. I could plausibly say “Joe allowed all this, but Trump would’ve just done the whole thing.” But obviously we don’t even live in the lesser evil world…

    And it’s not like I’m a single issue “fuck you Biden” guy. Supporting the genocide was just the absolute last straw on a camel that had come into existence with a broken back.

    Other shit Biden has done which is just explicitly moronic outside of Israel support:

    • Ukraine support (worse: forcing the war to continue)
    • instigating war with China literally constantly mostly around pushing a false narrative of Xi invading Taiwan
    • domestically, never ending Trump’s deportation practices as he promised. Proposing a third reich style bill eventually instead of explaining the entire issue is made up by the right wing
    • hasn’t done anything of significance to expand full medical coverage to everyone, hasn’t forgiven all student debt or even the piddling amount he promised (self-cucking to SCOTUS who has no enforcement powers)
    • not expanding SCOTUS to dilute the insane right wingers
    • not openly pushing for removal of the multiple openly super corrupt SCOTUS justices
    • not pushing for DC/PR to become states thus securing 4 democratic senate seats and some house seats basically forever (diluting the senate’s power and SCOTUS are basically the only “reforms” capable of causing significant positive change. Neither institution should exist)
    • the list goes on.

    Biden didn’t promise most of that, in fairness to him, but also that’s exactly why he was dogshit and Bernie, who was already the compromise candidate, was the only acceptable candidate in 2016/2020. (Obviously his stance on Israel is… bad.)

    I didn’t vote in 2016 after Bernie got fucked because fuck Hillary. She’s a warmonger and she can and will rot in hell. I will never vote for her, gun to my head. And I won’t be voting for Biden nor his replacement if there is one. Not because Trump is better, no, domestically he’s gonna be more of the same mostly but in some specific areas it will absolutely be far worse. And the fault for that lies on, well, obviously the Republicans but also the dems who have enabled him and still continue enabling him by actions such as still supporting an animated corpse named Joe Biden. If they were serious about not having Trump elected they wouldn’t be supporting Israel during an obvious genocide and they’d have done things to those IN POWER who enabled Trump last time. They didn’t do shit. They locked up some hogs that broke into the capitol building, ok, but Trump isn’t in jail nor does it seem he will be going. Bannon got caught on the self-caused refusal to testify- he should’ve been rotting already. Same for Roger Stone, Stephen Miller, Jared, Trump’s sons, etc. No one in power in the Democratic Party has demonstrated to me that they believe even 1% of their bullshit… so why should I?

    Voting for Biden won’t make things better. Not voting for him won’t make things better either. Nothing is gonna get better purely through these two parties and elections. Real power and any good change will emerge from normal people, probably through good union leaders that pursue politics. That’s the best case scenario anyway, because the realistic scenario for the US specifically… well… I’ll spare everyone that doom reading.

    But yeah, liberals can suck my ass. Not voting for genocide Joe. He was already 98% shit on Oct 6… then he went and did a genocide. Fuck him