75 Pittsburgh officers on leave after hourslong shootout and standoff during eviction attempt
www.nbcnews.com
The suspect, William Hardison Sr., shot at deputies trying to serve an eviction notice, resulting in a standoff that lasted about 6½ hours.

    Details are still scant, but…

“I mean, he had a lot of ammunition in that house, and certainly … all of us were strapped, you know, with ammunition, and we were calling for additional ammunition,” Kraus said. “Like I said, we tried to give him every opportunity to come out.”

    …I’ll go way out on a limb and suggest that this could’ve been handled better.

  • TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world
    817·
    10 months ago

    I get that he fired first ( the eviction situation is a whole other bag of nuts) but couldn’t 5 police officers with some tear gas have fixed this in 30 minutes with a lot less gunfire?

    The guy was losing his home and he was scared. We don’t know what his mental state was and we don’t know how he came in to possession of so much fire power so I’m not going to assume he bought guns instead of paying his rent- I’m just going to assume that 75 officers and 6.5 hours of gunfire was obviously not the best way out of this situation.

    • PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world
      668·
      10 months ago

      Are you kidding me, cops love this kind of stuff. They might act like they were scared or that it was a serious situation, but they were having so much fun. Cops wake up every day and hope something like this happens.

      So yeah, it definitely could have been handled better.

      • TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world
        8·
        10 months ago

        I meant that the guy they murdered was scared. I know who seeks to be police officers and it’s not people who are generally egalitarian or understanding.

    • Alien Nathan Edward@lemm.ee
      12·
      10 months ago

      couldn’t 5 police officers with some tear gas have fixed this in 30 minutes with a lot less gunfire?

      I’ve got a theory that we’ll never see investigated, and that’s that dude is responsible for probably about the first ten shots and the rest of this “standoff” was police shooting in response to hearing their own gunfire.

    • Etterra@lemmy.world
      12·
      10 months ago

      Only if they were trained worth a damn and didn’t have the biggest chip on their shoulders imaginable outside of an evangelical church.

    • jscummy@sh.itjust.works
      54·
      10 months ago

      Saying the guy was “losing his home and scared” is giving him far too much credit. He’s a sovereign citizen wackjob with an extensive criminal record, he’s not a poor downtrodden guy who snapped when he got kicked out.

      • TheDoctorDonna@lemmy.world
        10·
        10 months ago

        Being poor and downtrodden is likely what lead him to be in that state in the first place. Someone can be a “whackjob” and still get the benefit of the doubt- especially when it comes to police brutality. We all know they’ll look for any excuse to kill. That’s why they’re police.

  • Treczoks@lemmy.world
    11349·
    10 months ago

    Does anyone else see that people having enough ammunition at home to keep up over six hours of gun fire is the real problem here?

      • gamer@lemm.ee
        135·
        10 months ago

        James Madison? Who the fuck is that? The second amendment is a God given right.

        • DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe
          21·
          10 months ago

          Don’t be ridiculous, General Grant sniped God with a M1 Garand at the landing on Lexington Beach.

          Human rights are demanded and earned by humans, with guns.

      • Saneless@sh.itjust.works
        63·
        10 months ago

        My problem is that some greedy guy told cops to solve his dangerous problem for him at their own risk

        • SneakyThunder@sh.itjust.works
          62·
          10 months ago

          I mean, cops get paid with his money through taxation. What’s the problem of asking them to do what they’re paid for?

          • Alien Nathan Edward@lemm.ee
            6·
            10 months ago

            we’ve established multiple times that the police have no obligation to do what they’re paid for. it therefore follows that when they do choose to enforce the law it’s because they like that particular law or dislike the person they’re enforcing it against.

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
      4728·
      10 months ago

      Guy doesn’t have enough money for rent

      Guy owns enough guns and ammunition to keep the police in standoff for 6½ hours

      …

      But housing price was the issue? 🤔

      • CADmonkey@lemmy.world
        214·
        10 months ago

        How long was he collecting ammunition? Did he buy a box on payday once in a while for a few years, or did he go out to Walmart and buy everything he used?

        Everyone seems to assume that this guy found out he’d be evicted and he immediately went and bought a rifle and 20,000 rounds of ammunition that evening. Bullets don’t go bad, he probably bought them over a few years.

        • SCB@lemmy.world
          68·
          10 months ago

          If instead of buying guns with your paycheck for years, you plopped it in an index fund, perhaps rent wouldn’t seem so out of reach.

          Edit: if you click the links within the articles and keep going, you find out he got evicted because he’s a SovCit who refused payments and wanted to fight the gov

          Sources said Hardison believed he was a sovereign citizen, meaning he thought he was exempt from the law.

          A Channel 11 News photographer discovered a video of Hardison during a prior interaction with police in 2019. In the video, you can see a Moorish flag, which is flown by Moorish sovereign citizens.

          Hardison had a criminal history dating back to at least 2000.

            • SCB@lemmy.world
              11·
              10 months ago

              Yeah I travel a lot for work and 3 news articles is not what I would call “heavy reading”

              Perhaps you’d be less busy if you weren’t working retail at a gun store.

        • ReluctantMuskrat@lemmy.world
          68·
          10 months ago

          Not sure that’s much better. I’ve accumulated 15,000 rounds of ammo that I’ve not used but I need more… how about 20,000 rounds??

          Someone accumulating that amount of ammo “just in case” has probably got some other issues.

          • tacosplease@lemmy.world
            64·
            10 months ago

            Lots of people have lots of bullets. Not saying they aren’t crazy, but if they are then there’s a fuck ton of heavily armed crazy people… Ok yeah actually that checks out.

        • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
          47·
          10 months ago

          So? If you can’t pay your rent and face eviction you sell that shit, you don’t start shooting people doing their fucking job.

          Gun nuts are the first to speak about individual responsibility but when it’s their turn to face their responsibilities you can be sure of one thing, they ain’t facing them without a fight!

          • TechnoBabble@lemm.eeEnglish
            5·
            10 months ago

            This guy was a sovereign citizen, so the worst of the worst kind of crazy.

            Didn’t see that mentioned elsewhere in the thread, and it’s a big fucking detail to leave out.

      • iN8sWoRLd@lemmy.worldEnglish
        171·
        10 months ago

        Here’s what I read - I do not have the source but it was on a local Pittsburgh news site IIRC. He wasn’t paying rent. House was his deceased brother’s house which he bought in 1998 - not sure if shooter had inherited it or not, but there was something in excess of 15K owed for back taxes on it. An LLC paid the taxes on it and BOOM its their house - he filed paperwork with the state that they were scammers and he was contesting what he saw as an someone stealing his house. The LLC filed to have him evicted. Ultimately he made a bad decision to use a weapon and not a lawyer but he was ex-military and may have seen this as the last straw.

      • orcrist@lemm.ee
        7·
        10 months ago

        I think guns and bullets are a lot cheaper than you think they are. You can get a gun and a thousand bullets for under $500 last I checked.

      • randon31415@lemmy.world
        2·
        10 months ago

        Quick google search: Average rent in Pittsburgh: $1,531. Cost per bullet: $0.08 to $3 per shot depending on size. Number of bullets shot: Well, lets assume 30/minute, as that is what I found on google as the fastest you can shoot an non-automatic (I don’t know what kind of gun he used or if he was perpetually shooting, this is just for math). So the cost of doing 30 shot/minute for 6.5 hours would be from $936 to $35,100. More for semi-automatic, less for shooting less.

        So… probably shot a month’s rent worth of bullets in those 6.5 hours. Others could get you closer, google isn’t what it use to be.

      • Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        1·
        10 months ago

        I read it wasn’t a rent dispute but that someone bought the property because he wasn’t paying taxes. Searchig this thread for a source, though.

    • Dead_or_Alive@lemmy.world
      2018·
      10 months ago

      No, it isn’t a problem. Just because a car collector has 100 cars and commits a crime with one of them doesn’t make everyone else who enjoys collecting cars a criminal.

      • Clent@lemmy.world
        52·
        10 months ago

        How can you be so dense that you’re take away is arm up!

        Didn’t help this guy, didn’t help the guy in Utah, won’t help you.

          • SCB@lemmy.world
            25·
            10 months ago

            No you’re a psychopath and as a person who has lived through some very hard times, I don’t believe you when you say you have and I won’t believe you when you respond with some story about how you have.

            This is crazy person shit.

  • Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca
    601·
    10 months ago

    Why didn’t the cops just leave and then surprise arrest him two days later when he leaves for some groceries or something?

    Obviously he wasn’t a flight risk since he was literally in trouble for not wanting to leave. Did he have a hostage or something? Why was it time sensitive to arrest him that very day?

      • Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        6·
        10 months ago

        “we gave gim every opportunity to come out” (as he looks out the window to 6 dozen fucking police officers)

      • arbitrary@lemmy.world
        1336·
        10 months ago

        ‘hey, why didn’t police leave the guy alone during his illegal activities for some more days after letting him know that police is now involved and after noticing the high capability and willingness to use lethal force to sustain said illegal activities?’ ‘because they are all eeeeevilllll’

    • Mamertine@lemmy.world
      610·
      10 months ago

      The property owner has a right to use their property without that guy being there.

      An eviction is a court order. The sheriff’s office is usually required to evict. Each states laws are worded a little different.

  • jmanes@lemmy.worldEnglish
    571·
    10 months ago

    Alternate phrasing: Single man takes on 75 cops for 6 straight hours.

  • Clent@lemmy.world
    7829·
    10 months ago

    Another responsible gun owner.

    This is why I laugh when the ammmosexuals claims their arsenal protects them.

    • Treczoks@lemmy.world
      2618·
      10 months ago

      Thank you for the word “Ammosexuals”. I LOVE it. It perfectly describes this kind of “people”.

    • ShittyRedditWasBetter@lemmy.world
      2540·
      10 months ago

      The dude was able to hold off 75 police for 6 hours.

      Seems like having that gun was working exactly as intended and advertised. You’d only need tens of people to waste millions in costs and take over an entire city. Can you imagine the cluster fuck with 15 of these going on, traking hostages? You could shut down an entire city with just a bit of coordination.

      • hglman@lemmy.mlEnglish
        506·
        10 months ago

        The insane number of cops here is due to the offices wanting to get in on shooting at someone, not any meaningful need to have 75 officers respond.

      • RGB3x3@lemmy.world
        167·
        10 months ago

        75 police for 6 hours and still lost. Wasted all his money, all his ammo, threw away his life and for what?

        We don’t live in an anarchist state. There are rules and norms we need to follow if we’re going to live in a peaceful society and your takeover fantasy is dangerous and unrealistic.

      • CADmonkey@lemmy.world
        83·
        10 months ago

        Able to hold off the cops for 6 hours, but worse than that, everyone in the country saw someone hold off the cops for 6 hours. And this is after everyone watched the cops stand around afraid to save children from a shooter. Maybe the pigs should work on some training, so they aren’t scared, or unable to get one person out of a house.

          • SCB@lemmy.world
            21·
            10 months ago

            They didn’t need to be because a dude with a gun is not nearly that big a deal.

            That’s how silly it is that people buy guns to try to overthrow the government

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
              21·
              10 months ago

              Ok but imagine 1000 dudes like this

              Even the military would find that difficult to deal with

              • SCB@lemmy.world
                11·
                10 months ago

                No they would not lol. They’d just bomb the house.

                Once the military is involved, ordinance and utter air superiority is also involved.

                “Dudes with guns” have a 0% chance of defeating the US military. People bring up vietnam and Afghanistan as if A) those wars weren’t heavy on RoE and more about military policing than war - which a revolution most assuredly would not be and B) the kill ratio of those conflicts is in US favor by shit like 30+ to 1. That’s in enemy territory, thousands of miles from home, with stretched logistics lines, and a hostile or at best indifferent local populace outside of every major city.

                The US lost fewer than 2,000 soldiers to enemy actions in Afghanistan. That’s fewer people than died in 9/11, spread out over 2 decades. That’s more than 1/3rd fewer people than the US lost in just the battle of Iwo Jima.

                Once you consider that these “armed revolutionaries” will be viewed as terrorists by at minimum 160 million of their neighbors, and they will be denied all critical infrastructure, funding, and support, it is a no-brainer that they will be slaughtered. That’s even assuming these irregulars count as soldiers and wouldn’t just piss and shit themselves once they started getting bombed from beyond visual range. War is really fucking scary and the average angry shut-in cannot handle it.

                The math just doesn’t hold up. This isn’t a real option - it’s a dangerous, radicalizing fantasy that encourages lone wolves and militias to attack soft targets.

  • ikiru@lemmy.ml
    6617·
    10 months ago

    …I’ll go way out on a limb and suggest that this could’ve been handled better.

    Yeah, I mean, they could stop evicting people and sentencing them to homelessness.

    That would be a start and would have avoided this entire thing.

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
      3913·
      10 months ago

      I mean the guy could have not spent all his money on guns and ammo and pay rent?

      Where are guns on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs do you reckon?

      • sudo22@lemmy.worldEnglish
        175·
        10 months ago

        Ammo costs far less than rent and lasts far longer then just a month when purchased.

        • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
          1211·
          10 months ago

          It’s also not essential, so…

          (I know, I know, it’s hard for you guys to admit that guns aren’t the most important thing in life)

          • sudo22@lemmy.worldEnglish
            512·
            10 months ago

            You sound no different than boomers telling younger people to stop buying lattes and avocado toast to fix our financial burdens.

            (Under handed comments add nothing to the conversation, you just sound like an asshole)

            Edit: I thought this guy couldn’t afford rent and was another victim of the housing crisis, rather then just refusing to pay it (something about being a sovereign citizen). My bad.

            • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
              71·
              10 months ago

              Dude, if you’re budget is so tight that you can barely afford to pay your rent then choose your priorities. For that guy it was guns > rent? He deserves zero pity if he gets thrown out on the street. Heck, gun nuts are all about individual responsibilities? Well that’s what individual responsibilities looks like and it looks like he just couldn’t accept it so he felt the need to shoot at the people coming to evict him.

              • sudo22@lemmy.worldEnglish
                21·
                10 months ago

                I meant more generally, arguing rent over ammo or other relatively inexpensive (vs rent) wants. Sorry I didn’t realize this particular individual seems to have been avoiding rent rather then unable to afford it.

                My bad.

                • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
                  3·
                  10 months ago

                  Even if it was an issue with being able to afford it instead of avoiding it, hoarding non essentials while you’re struggling to pay for essential needs is fucking ridiculous, sell that shit, keep a roof above your head.

            • SCB@lemmy.world
              31·
              10 months ago

              Guarantee you that him just liquidating the guns and ammo would’ve been enough money for a new apartment or to pay his rent.

              Dude didn’t want to pay and wanted to fight the gov because he was a SovCit.

              Sources said Hardison believed he was a sovereign citizen, meaning he thought he was exempt from the law.

              A Channel 11 News photographer discovered a video of Hardison during a prior interaction with police in 2019. In the video, you can see a Moorish flag, which is flown by Moorish sovereign citizens.

              Hardison had a criminal history dating back to at least 2000.

              Source: further nested news links if you chase the articles back.

    • InvaderDJ@lemmy.worldEnglish
      42·
      10 months ago

      Agreed, but this is probably not the case to make the argument with. If someone has the guns and ammo to fight off police enforcing property owner rights (something they would be way more gung ho about than stopping a school shooter it seems) for six hours, they have the money to pay for rent.

        • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
          41·
          10 months ago

          How are you going to finance housing then? Honest question. Not everyone can buy housing outright. Lots of people are very poor at managing their finances. See, my mom for exhibit A.

          • ikiru@lemmy.ml
            42·
            10 months ago

            Socialized housing that is paid through government funds and taxes.

            • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
              1·
              10 months ago

              We do need socialized housing, but the government doesn’t have the ability to construct and manage most of the housing. Too expensive. The bureaucracy would kill it, just look at what happened to the Soviet Union.

              My city can’t even build an apartment building without spending 8 years in design review. And they’re having a private nonprofit so ask the lifting.

              US real estate is worth around $43 trillion.

    • crystal@feddit.de
      1531·
      10 months ago

      People should be allowed to occupy and damage any property they’ve set foot on once, not matter how expensive

      • hglman@lemmy.mlEnglish
        245·
        10 months ago

        People should have a home if the action here were to provide another housing option, then this wouldn’t have happened. Also seems the person likely had a traumatic reason for being evicted and needed help.

        • crystal@feddit.de
          147·
          10 months ago

          I agree. But I probably wouldn’t phrase that as “they could stop evicting people”.

          Even if well implemented social housing existed, one should still be able to evict people from expensive property they aren’t willing or able to pay for.

        • crystal@feddit.de
          128·
          10 months ago

          Indeed. If you want anything better than the cheapest apartments to exist, you have to be able to evict people who can’t afford more than the cheapest apartments.

          • Famko@lemmy.world
            95·
            10 months ago

            But people these days can’t even afford the cheapest apartments, so what’s the point of having “better” apartments for the minority?

            • Maalus@lemmy.world
              96·
              10 months ago

              So instead let the people move into those apartments for free, damage them and then let them shoot at police trying to evict them?

              Would you be willing to part with your life savings to give them to me just because I left a comment to your thread? If not, why are you expecting other people to part with the houses they built with their life savings for some random bloke?

            • SCB@lemmy.world
              2·
              10 months ago

              By definition, people can afford the cheapest apartments, because that’s how those apartments get rented at that price point.

              • mathemachristian@lemm.ee
                2·
                10 months ago

                Do you not see the problem here?? Your definition only includes those able to rent. As soon as the price of the cheapest apartment rises anyone under that cutoff becomes invisible to you.

          • mathemachristian@lemm.ee
            44·
            10 months ago

            Fuck the children of poor people, idiots should’ve been working to supplement the families income if they didn’t want to be crammed into a room with their siblings. Lazy ass kids…

        • Meowoem@sh.itjust.works
          53·
          10 months ago

          So I can just take all your stuff and you’re fine with it because fuck private property?

          There are huge problems in the current system but just letting the person with the most guns do whatever they want is not a good solution

          • mathemachristian@lemm.ee
            44·
            10 months ago

            If it prevents someone from being homeless without risking someone else (or me) being homeless then yes. Private property should not be of a higher concern than someone having shelter.

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
              21·
              10 months ago

              You could be helping hundreds of people in poor countries survive, but you’re not. You should be selling your property and donating the proceeds to UNICEF or similar.

              • mathemachristian@lemm.ee
                1·
                10 months ago

                Do you not understand the difference between taking from someone that’s hoarding a resource required by society and taking everything someone owns?

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
                  1·
                  10 months ago

                  You have more than you need, though, and someone else needs it more than you do. You don’t have to give up everything you own, just everything in excess of your need.

      • ikiru@lemmy.ml
        2219·
        10 months ago

        Dude, shut the fuck up.

        I hope you get to be in this dude’s situation one day and you have to take your homelessness with a please and thank you, sir, may I have another.

        • crystal@feddit.de
          2210·
          10 months ago

          He occupied a house, not an apartment. He got evicted because he wouldn’t settle for less than a whole house.

          I may be in this dude’s situation one day. And you know what I’m gonna do? Move to a cheaper apartment.

  • rez_doggie@lemmy.world
    361·
    10 months ago

    End qualified immunity. They likely damaged other people’s property and deprived they of their rights while endangering them.

  • Franzia@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    6·
    10 months ago

    "We were aware of the actor’s disdain for government when we went to serve the eviction notice which is why we had extra deputies on the detail came prepared to escalate this neighborhood into a warzone for shits and giggles," Manko said in an emailed statement Friday.

  • randon31415@lemmy.world
    4·
    10 months ago

    Normally I would say wait until he is out for groceries - his local grocer doesn’t have a lot of ammunition. Though this guy seems to be the kind of guy to have a horde of food, and I don’t think anyone would want him laying suppressive fire on the neighborhood until he runs out.

  • SwedishFool@lemmy.world
    519·
    10 months ago

    I don’t know what you all are moaning about, sure, 75 cops is quite a lot, but if you as a cop is there to simply deliver the message and get shot at, do you think the appropriate response is to go: “Oh hell, I’ll just go tell the -ACTUAL- owner of the house that it’s this guy’s house now.” And just leave after somebody tried to murder you?

    Sure the economy and the socio-economic environment is what’s caused this to happen, that’s the real disease, but even then you sometimes need to treat the symptoms. This is one of the symptoms. Also a 6.5 hour shootout doesn’t nessicarily mean a high rate if fire, he might aswell just be looking out the window and throw a pistol round out once every 10 minutes. That’s 39 bullets or just around 2.5 pistol magazines.

    Stop moaning about it.

    • Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      231·
      10 months ago

      It was nonstop gunfire, not just a few rounds here and there.

      Source: I work a block away and heard it as I was on lockdown.

      I think that a better way to have handled this was for a social worker to be there with police and say, off the bat, that he hasn’t paid on the property since his brother died and he needs to leave but they’re there to help him get into a better situation. Maybe he would have been more open minded to that than heavily armed men trying to break down his door to get him out. At that point you’re just cornering a dangerous animal (as all humans can be) into a corner and made him do whatever it took to retain his quality of life. It’s a tragedy and failure of the system all around.

      • SwedishFool@lemmy.world
        11·
        10 months ago

        I’m glad to stand corrected, merely trying to make the point that until we know for certain people shouldn’t assume it was like an active warzone.

        That said, we don’t know how it started. They were there to evict somebody that at that point don’t have the legal rights to be in that property. They might’ve knocked the door and explained the situation and ended up getting shot at out of nowhere. Bottom line is he hit his lowest and the reaction was to engage the messengers with lethal force.

        Like I said previously, this is a symptom of a socioeconomic disease that needs to get cured, even as such you still sometimes have to treat the symptoms. He didn’t do this because he wanted to, but it’s not the landlord’s problem to handle either and a social worker wouldn’t have stopped him from getting evicted. Worst case scenario that social worker would’ve gotten shot and killed for telling him he needs to find a new home.

      • SwedishFool@lemmy.world
        1·
        10 months ago

        Absolutely, not knowing the situation however, it might’ve had to be delivered by a launcher if the door or windows themselves could not be reached on foot.

        I don’t know anything about their police, but considering the political climate regarding the “militarization” of the police force it’s not entirely impossible they don’t have said launchers. As such, safely deploying gas canisters might’ve been deemed impossible.

        • Doug Holland@lemmy.worldOP
          1·
          10 months ago

          The police in every big- or even mid-size American city have tear gas and all the necessary equipment to use it.

  • kool_newt@lemm.ee
    1235·
    10 months ago

    You know who could realistically reign in the police? You if you run for office.

    • Isthisreddit@lemmy.worldEnglish
      171·
      10 months ago

      Actually not really, they are a gang, and act like a gang. Read up on the nonsense the NYPD were doing with NYC mayor deBlasio. Can’t fix the corruption - I don’t really have a good solution other than to tear out the police department root and stem, and rebuild from nothing.

      • kool_newt@lemm.eeEnglish
        1·
        10 months ago

        Can’t fix the corruption - I don’t really have a good solution other than to tear out the police department root and stem…

        I want this but it’s not realistic. A combination of voting, running for office (even if not to win but to inject topics and move the Overton Window, if you win the purpose isn’t primarily to use the state to do good, but to pull the boot off our necks so we can organize more effectively), small-scale anarchism, dual-power, and mutual aid will be needed. Some may say some of these things contradict but they’ll probably tell you a full-on revolution with a few infighting leftists vs the world is the way. I don’t agree.

        and rebuild from nothing.

        Oh… :( Rebuild what? Another authoritarian force that for sure this time will behave?