- cross-posted to:
- fediverse
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- fediverse
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://discuss.online/post/12273255
I’ve only been on Lemmy a few days and I’ve already witnessed a lot of thinly veiled transphobia, anything from people dismissing the existence of trans people, to trying to claim we are predators. I’ve also seen people downvoted in the general communities for expressing trans support, or seemingly for no reason other than simply being openly trans or visibly queer. I know it’s an ongoing effort to moderate transphobia on Lemmy, and the fediverse as a whole. We have to also address mentions of thinly veiled transphobia and transphobic users. Transphobia isn’t just a differing opinion, it is a dangerous hateful sentiment which causes harm to vulnerable people and it needs to be addressed, at the instance and community level. We need to put in the effort to identify transphobic dogwhistles and language used by transphobes to eradicate this type of behavior from our communities and servers alike.
Some people will argue that the light stuff isn’t something to worry about, but that’s not true. This is a tactic they use to blend in with normies and make them think that nothing they are doing or saying is wrong. It’s what transphobic right-wing YouTubers and Facebook users do to avoid being banned for hate speech. We are better than these corporations though, Fediverse is run by communities and for the users, we should not let these things slide as easily as Corporations do, they’re in it to make money, we… We’re in it to create a community for the users. Part of that means kicking out those who don’t have all our best interests at heart.
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I think it depends on where you go. I’ve seen lots of supportive behaviour across the fediverse.
Everything on the fediverse really depends on where you go. That’s kinda the whole point.
It’s true, but it’s not obvious if you’re new to the fediverse, since until now the closest we’ve had to decentralized communities online is Usenet and that’s only familiar to you if you’re been online for 30 years or more.
Yeah I haven’t seen any mods who are for it, granted OP is on discuss.online and I have defederated a lot of hate instances. People on beehaw, lemmy.world, and quite a few others have been if anything overly accepting than not. However, it’s why I discourage browsing all and instead curating a list of communities.
I only saw one Mod who was for it and he wasn’t even using his mod powers to push it, he was just pushing transphobia apologia and happened to be a mod in a different community. He got banned quickly from the community he did it in by the way. Glad he did, I’m sure he would’ve kept going if they didn’t. Though I do regret posting to his community. I might make a post addressing it later in [email protected] so people know to steer clear of those communities.
I have too, [email protected], [email protected], and [email protected] are some really nice ones. Most of what I’ve seen weren’t bad communities or even bad posts, it was users commenting under posts, sometimes their own, sometimes other people’s. Some weren’t even in communities related to LGBTQ, but it came up and they were talking about it. Most of the users had the @lemmy.world extension but a few were lemmy.ml, and a few others too.
It may be more effective to bring it up to the moderators of the individual communities where you’ve seen it. Also, generous use of the report button.
I will definitely report it more often when I see it.
Speaking as a mod, even speaking as a mod who’s terminally online, we can’t have eyes everywhere at once. Somewhere, in the depths of the comment chains, we always miss something, or skim over it. Reporting isn’t adding to our work load (generally), it’s a great help. You shouldn’t hesitate to report anything that seems like it breaks the rules/expresses bigotry.
This, and lay out the details like ELI5 and as an unemotional objective thing with detail.
I have received many flags to sort out that take more than a few minutes to figure out the tone and meaning. I strongly believe people have a right to be stupid, wrong, a bit rude, or to have a bad day. I need to know exactly why the comment is more than this in a well laid out fashion. If you think it is a pattern with the individual, prove it. If some subtle phrase carries more meaning than I may realize, say so. I want to make people feel welcome on all fronts with a Hippocratic framework of “first, do no harm.” At the same time, a visible mod is a bad mod. I will read every detail. I will give the benefit of the doubt in every possible case. I won’t be passive to bigotry, but I will allow an asshole that does no harm. I’m but one insignificant mod. I care a whole lot more as a person, but I act conservatively as a mod. When flagging something imagine the person on the other end is working on some big project, stopping their day, and taking a half hour to sort out the details, thinking them through, and taking action. It usually takes me longer to shift gears and do this in practice. I’ll usually send a message explaining why I did or did not do anything as well.
Welcome here!
Please report such comments or posts.
If it’s at the mod level, please document it on [email protected]
We all try to fight against transphobia, but we don’t have eyes everywhere
Block lemmy.ml and hexbear to start. I find their users to be quite toxic.
Of all the stupid, bigoted dogshit flung around by Hexbear, outright transphobia generally is not one of them.
Generally isn’t even a factor. Hexbears have some nuclear takes, but they are death on transphobia
They do bad faith trolling though.
I have many issues with hexbear, but transphobia is not one of them. They are explicitly and aggressively trans inclusive
Most of the people exhibiting the transphobic traits and behaviors I’ve mentioned had @lemmy.world extensions on their account. I saw only a few from lemmy.ml doing it, and essentially no hexbears doing it at all.
There is an entire trans community Lemmy instance in case you were unaware. Not saying it makes transphobia here okay or anything, just might be helpful to know.
I know, I’m subscribed to many of their communities already, they are some of the nicest people I’ve met on the fediverse. If I was going to recommend my friends join Lemmy I would recommend they join lemmy.blahaj.zone. However even though there are good instances which are safe spaces it doesn’t detract from the problem, since they will still use the federated general communities and thus will still encounter those problems. Even if they’re on the friendly insances, the problem gets federated.
That’s why it is important to address transphobia in the fediverse as a whole, having safe spaces help but we should expect a level of common decency in any community. Not just in the trans-specific communities.
It’s worth noting that instances can defederate from other instances and also remove specific content even if it comes from users on other instances. Instances can also ban users on other instances from their instance.
Using an instance like lemmy.blahaj.zone is likely to be a very different (and much more supportive) experience, even if they are federated with the same instances, due to the ability for admins to curate.
But also different instances have different “all” feed due to users subscribing to different communities.
Most of those people are on big general purpose instances hiding in the shadows, instead of hanging out on Nazi instances so defederation doesn’t really help. Hopefully more people from lemmy.blahaj.zone can go through the general communities on lemmy.world and the like and report as many of those users as possible so they can be banned from their instance. Though it also does feel like a bandaide fix, we need bigger instances to cooperate on these issues, otherwise it’s not actually solved, just hidden for one side. We need lemmy.world’s admins to ban a lot of these people, so they’ll be banned everywhere, not just on specific servers. Banning them from the communities on those instances so they can’t post on them at all anymore. Not just making their transphobic garbage hidden.
I do see Lemmy.world admins take quick action when it’s raised to then. However, Lemmy does not differentiate between community and admin reports, so using the normal report function may not be enough. Lemmy.world has a separate process for when an admin needs to be contacted.
I have seen that issues raised on Lemmy.blahaj.zone get raised directly from their admin to to lemmy.world admins, and then there is swift action. Another reason blahaj is a good instance for someone who is gender diverse, the admin doesn’t hesitate to go in to bat for their members
Those instances are terrible for many, many reasons. Transphobia is NOT one of those reasons.
The tone of this ostensible appeal for tolerance strikes me as disturbingly aggressive and inquisitorial.
This thread transformed from being about a serious issue on the fediverse into a pile of accusations on a personal level. I don’t see this thread becoming any more civilized the way the comments are spiraling downwards. I’m keeping the post up because, as I said, this is a serious issue, but I don’t think keeping the thread unlocked is doing any good.
I don’t support transphobia, but this sounds extremely aggressive and almost unworkable. Who gets to decide what qualifies as “thinly veiled transphobia”? or “transphobic dogwhistles” and what approach is used to disperse bans?
For example, in many countries some people who might be generally supportive of trans people (in the sense that they would want you to be the best version of yourself) might oppose inclusion of transwomen in natal-women’s spaces. Does this qualify for an automatic ban?
Some might claim this is transphobic, but my answer to that would be: How do you know? Do you speak the local language? Have you lived there? Do you have any knowledge about the region’s history? Do you know what the attitude of the local LGBT community is to the above-mentioned example?
We shouldn’t limit ourselves by the assumptions (and polemics) of a given region even if English is the lingua franca of the internet. A lot of people in the world speak English as second language.
Hopefully more people from lemmy.blahaj.zone can go through the general communities on lemmy.world and the like and report as many of those users as possible so they can be banned from their instance.
I would definitely oppose this without addressing specifically what qualifies as “transphobia” and what the specific policies are with regards to moderator actions. Otherwise this is just some rampage witchhunt against perceived enemies.
I don’t support transphobia, but this sounds extremely aggressive and almost unworkable. Who gets to decide what qualifies as “thinly veiled transphobia”? or “transphobic dogwhistles” and what approach is used to disperse bans?
It’s easy, comments which dismiss or devalue trans people, attempt to undermine our rights, or justify or sympathize with transphobia count as thinly veiled transphobia. This is widely agreed upon by trans people and their allies alike.
For example, in many countries some people who might be generally supportive of trans people (in the sense that they would want you to be the best version of yourself) might oppose inclusion of trans women in natal-women’s spaces. Does this qualify for an automatic ban?
This is transphobic, it implies that trans women aren’t real women. We are real women. We aren’t men pretending to be women. This type of argument attempts to invalidate trans women and claim that we aren’t real women. They claim to respect us as women but they don’t think we should be in spaces with other women. If we’re real women and they think we’re real women how does that make any sense. Answer, it doesn’t. This is an example of thinly veiled transphobia.
Some might claim this is transphobic, but my answer to that would be: How do you know? Do you speak the local language? Have you lived there? Do you have any knowledge about the region’s history? Do you know what the attitude of the local LGBT community is to the above-mentioned example?
More examples of trying to justify thinly veiled transphobia. You know how we know it IS transphobic, because it is exclusionary towards actual women on the basis that we’re transgender. Just because transphobia is normalized in some places doesn’t make it not transphobia, also doesn’t make it not wrong and exclusionary. Please don’t try to excuse transphobia on the basis of the people being foreigners or the transphobia being mild and the people still self-proclaiming themselves to be trans allies.
Hopefully more people from lemmy.blahaj.zone can go through the general communities on lemmy.world and the like and report as many of those users as possible so they can be banned from their instance.
I would definitely oppose this without addressing specifically what qualifies as “transphobia” and what the specific policies are with regards to moderator actions. Otherwise this is just some rampage witchhunt against perceived enemies.
It’s not complicated, anything trans exclusionary or invalidating to trans identities is transphobic. “I don’t hate trans people but I don’t think they should force their identities and pronouns onto other people” is a transphobic dogwhistle and a prime example of thinly veiled transphobia, and it’s the kind of thing you’d likely excuse here. I mean you literally excused excluding trans women from “women’s spaces” despite us being women. That in and of itself is a dogwhistle, “protect women’s spaces”. I do think that Lemmy.blahaj.zone though should alert other admins including lemmy.world’s admins o the problem though so they can ban these people everywhere, and not just from a single instance and its communities.
This is not a matter of justification or sympathy of transphobia. You can’t condemn hundreds of millions of people (billions?) as evil just because they don’t 100% align with your worldview. Especially if you know nothing about various countries’ LGBT communities and their views and priorities.
How do you know your maximalist approach is shared by the global trans community? How many languages do you speak? Have you ever been part (IRL, not online) of another country’s trans community? Living there and interacting with other people (trans and not trans).
Why are you saying that I believe that “[trans people] should [not] force their identities and pronouns onto other people?” Why are you putting words in my mouth? Is this because I provided a critique of your approach and offered a perspective from a non-english speaking country? I brought up the natal women’s spaces example because it’s a real world example that shows the limits of your approach. You don’t know whether trans folk in non-english speaking countries are in 100% alignment with you on this issue.
I will admit I don’t either. But unlike you I do have some exposure to our local LGBT community and to me this comes off as almost orientalist. You definitely have a lack of appreciation that people in other countries (trans or otherwise) may view things through a different lens and have their own strategies and priorities.
Terminally online people often get the feeling that everyone except a hateful minority agrees with them, when in reality they’re part of a secluded echo chamber.
I know it’s not specific to the Fediverse, but I recommend you watch this video from Fran Blanche: it’s eye-opening and a bit heart-breaking:
Fran Blanche is a genuinely kind person, a good engineer, and her career has been hobbled by rampant transphobia.
The downvotes on this thread might be a very good way for admins to identify transphobic people, most of them are likely either transphobes or bots run by transphobes. If you’re not interested maybe still collect the names and send it to @[email protected] so she can use it to better clean up their instance from silent transphobia.
I’m surprised by the numbers too, why would someone downvote such thread?
It’s almost certainly transphobic people or bots run by transphobic people. Either way people who don’t bring anything positive to the discussion and who bear hostility to the trans community, hence why I say the downvotes on the post can be used to find some of the more quiet transphobes and ban them.
“anyone who doesn’t want my change needs to be banned!”
They’ll always exist and you need to accept that as a fact. Just silencing people you disagree with isnt a way to solve the problem.What do you mean by “the downvotes on this thread … [is a] … very good way to identify transphobic people”?
Which specific post is transphobic? Considering that you are asking for a major instance-wide ban campaign, you should expect people to question the criteria for the application of such bans.
You didn’t even provide a basic definition of your understanding what needs to be banned or what qualifies as “just asking questions”. Do you not see how this is completely unworkable?
what qualifies as “just asking questions”
You just highlighted a transphobic dogwhistle, where people claim to be “just asking questions” and their questions are by nature invalidating or attempting to be invalidating towards trans people.
if you want to know what I meant by downvotes in the thread, many people who are transphobic aren’t bold enough to express it directly, they do it indirectly claiming they are just asking questions or that they just don’t support that one basic things that trans people expect to receive. Some are even more less direct, lurking and hiding but they still express their distain and transphobia through downvotes. On Reddit they were practically anonymous. The fediverse though allows votes to be seen by instance admins, so it’s really easy for admins to find the ones doing this and give them the boot. Votes aren’t anonymous.
I already did provide you with criteria for what counts as transphobia, though from what you’ve said here you sound like a typical apologist and discussion will likely not go anywhere.
I honestly still don’t get what is meant by downvotes in this thread. To me this comes off as any opposition/critique is transphobic by default; not a viable perspective in my humble opinion.
Apologist of what? Transphobia? You are not justified in making such a statement.
By the same logic, would I be justified in labelling you an orientalist; a bearer of the “white [person’s] burden” (in the metaphorical sense)?
Yep, I noticed that too, OP. And when I point it out, they claim I’m crying victim or that I have “main character syndrome” or that I am sealioning.
But you’re not alone. Other people notice this just like you do.
Note how this reply has fuck all to do with anything. It is just here to lure people into viewing their “interesting” profile.
