President Biden vowed on Monday to veto a House Republican bill that would provide $17.6 billion in aid to Israel, calling it a “cynical political maneuver” intended to hurt the chances of passage for broader legislation that would provide money for Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan and the U.S. border.
House Republicans fiercely oppose the larger bill, which was unveiled by a small, bipartisan group of senators over the weekend. It calls for $118.3 billion in spending and would overhaul some of the nation’s immigration laws to deal with recent surges of migrants at the southern border.
The president hears the people no longer agree with our stance on Israel
The president changes his policies to reflect the will of the people
This is how it’s supposed to work!
It’s unfortunate that I have run into people that don’t believe that. I once got called a flipflopper because I commented one stance based on inaccurate information I had, and was given new accurate information which changed my mind.
People be treating reality like a high school debate club and just sticking with a position because that’s what they choose at the beginning. You can change your mind. Especially if it’s based on new information you didn’t have before.
Right? I knew that Gaza was bad before this conflict but I didn’t have any real information. I then went and educated myself and I have a pretty firm opinion on the subject now which is different than it used to be.
Highschool debate club has failed if that’s what people compare actual debate to. It’s necessary to take a firm stand in a discussion, even being devil’s advocate is fine, as long as it happens objectively.
But I guess HS debates just end after three rounds and then no retrospective happens about what stance (not WHO) was right and why.
TL;DR HS debates were supposed to be better than this.
To be fair: My high school fuckin’ sucked.
But also: judged competitions don’t usually see one side agree with the other after hearing their side… That seems like a sure fire way to lose the competition.
Yeah during the debate you defend your position, but the retrospective after is lost. The thing that would connect the whole simulation to reality.
Thats not what is happening though is it?
The republicans want to kill funding for Ukraine, humantiarian aid and better protection of jewish and muslim places of worship against US domestic terrorism.
So they propose a “fund Israel only” bill, that Biden has to veto on and they can cry out against. He still wants the IDF to receive that money though, so they can continue destroying what is left of Gaza and kill and drive out even more people.
It’s hilarious that you think that’s actually what he wants.
Then what do you think he wants?
You realize there are no “good guys” in that war, right? There’s a grey area and a shit ton of nuance to it all. Not to mention a shit ton of history. Only a child sees this as a “which side should I chose be on” situation, and then goes to the intern to beat people over the head with their choice.
For the record, when I was much younger, I was an idealist also. And like the kids today, I also had no idea what I was taking about.
Nowhere did i say that there is a “good guy”.
Israel can only continue to subjugate the Palestinians in Gaza to these inhumane conditions, if they receive continued support from the US. All public calls for moderation have been ignored or renounced, yet the US continues to increase its military aid to Israel. Israel is not only facing a case of genocide, where the highest court of the world deemed it “plausible” that Israel is committing genocide and also demanded specific actions and omissions to prevent genocide by Israel. High ranking Israeli officials, including the President, the Prime Minister, the minister of Defence and high ranking army officials have been explicitly called out by the ICJ for a rhetoric that is indicative of genocidal intent.
If a child is told by its parents not to set things on fire, but at the same time is given another lighter and gasoline, it is clear that the parents do want the child to continue. Even more so as many other parents have told the child to stop and the parents defended their child against those people.
The US has all the means to stop Israel. Instead they are enabling Israel even further. If you want nuance, don’t just look at the words. Look at the actions taken.
You’re refusing to answer the question:
What does Biden specifically want re: Gaza?
I’m not qualified to know- which is why I don’t make assumptions. I cannot begin to understand politics at that level and what happens behind closed doors. And neither do you. I at least know that he doesn’t want genocide.
But don’t let this stop you from creating a narrative.
So your point is that no one should criticize the United State despite the truth being ambiguous. Makes sense.
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with why the International Court Justice ruled that Israel was plausibly committing a genocide. Perhaps that would clear some things up for you
I’m sick of hearing people say “there are no good guys” in this war, what does that even mean to you?
It means neither side is innocent. It’s pretty self-evident.
But it’s not just Hamas being slaughtered, all of Palestine is targeted by the IDF. There are other groups besides Hamas fighting. And there is one side who is stealing land and killing record numbers of children and aid workers, and has been for decades.
What are you quoting from?
Nothing, it’s an alternate usage like greentext from 4chan to show a summarized sequence of events that I’m responding to.
This is so stupid. NYTimes putting the phrase “to deal with recent surges of migrants at the southern border”…there IS no surge of migrants. They’re pushing bullshit in a passive way to make it sound legitimate.
Yeah, migrants just love to surge come election time.
What a bullshit.
Remember the massive “caravan” of migrants Fox breathlessly talked about as it made its way to the border?
I’ll never forget for months them screeching about it, and literally a day after the mid-term elections were over, the “caravans” were literally never mentioned again; until the next election year that is…
They’ll do the exact same thing again soon.
They are probably still mad Trump cut aid to the three Mexican countries…
All lies. I don’t believe US government numbers any more than I did during COVID. /S
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters
According to these statistics, the same thing happens every year. If you look at the previous years they all start to go up in January then peak around May and start to decline after that. So what’s the big deal if this happens every year? It’s to be expected.
The conservatives have been trotting out the “southern border crisis” red herring for so long that The Democrats were the first party to do it in the US. They keep doing it because it works. Those of us that live next to the border, like I do, can tell everyone back east that there’s no problem, but if one racist asshole starts yelling, there’s a whole bunch of racist assholes that live 2000 miles away that get scared and riled up.
what conservatives are upset about is often legal migrants and sometimes tourists. Its more transparent when cons talk about black people as “black culture”. They say its the “illegals” they’re worried about, but I doubt any rich republican employs less than 6 “Illegals” because I haven’t met a rich person that paid a fair wage. Its always been unserious.
The real problem is your deranged government officials bussing them all over the god damn US. Not that we can control your idiots but our idiots need to respond in kind. That is recieving them. Providing humane care and shelter. Then funding legal representation to sue the shit out of the people who sent them there.
Using human lives as a political hot potato is fucking despicable.
I live in California. Our government is receiving busses from everywhere.
I agree that Greg Abbot should be arrested on human trafficking charges.
Sucks that it is happening. The second we put those people on a bus America has an obligation to them as the people who have purposefully done them harm. They aren’t just migrants anymore they are victims.
Yeah and California already has a border with Mexico, so it’s not like “sharing the burden” is a legitimate argument. Texas just wants to stick its thumb in California’s eye.
Yes, using human lives as a political hot potato is despicable. However, the policy it implies (sharing the burden of caring for immigrants) is actually quite reasonable, and already policy in places like Germany.
Im betting German policy is a bit more involved than buying them a bus ticket and forcibly making sure they don’t miss that bus.
Looking at the graph, it’s well over 3x what it was in 2021…seems pretty obvious to me why this might be concerning.
No shit it was lower during COVID
During Covid the government enacted title 42 and didn’t allow any migrants entry to mitigate the spread of covid. Since covid is over they rescinded title 42, now all the asylum seekers waiting at the boarder are crossing as they would have just been turned away before. This was a predictable outcome and next year the numbers will drop back down.
An interesting point and I would be curious to see if it would pan out.
What do you make of people coming from continents besides South America? Do we owe it to Russian or Chinese citizens to offer them asylum? From my perspective asylum is something you offer your direct neighbors who are fleeing threats on their lives. Offering asylum to literally any citizen of the world seems a bit extreme. If someone in China fears for their life, certainly there are closer and more accessible countries they can flee to.
Let’s see what the source says:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters
There were 50k more border encounters (illegal apprehensions) in December than the year before. In fact, encounters have been significantly higher than recent years since August (no data for January).
You can agree or disagree with the response to the influx of people at the border. But there is no denying there has been a considerable increase in traffic.
Could absolutely be more enforcement, and not more traffic.
Did they add more enforcers, or did the existing ones get better at catching them?
I think the increase is corroborated by other measures, such as the size of tent cities in Tijuana etc.
Still, even if calling it a “migrant surge” is factually accurate, that doesn’t stop it from being propagandistic loaded language that any legitimate media outlet should avoid.
This is like the worst version of the trolley problem being worked out in real time.
Republicans be like:
Superficially this sounded plausible, but then when I thought about it I couldn’t make any sense of it. Do you mind explaining?
I hate that the two are becoming more and more conflated. Ukraine is fighting off a invasion; Israel is invading and has driven the people of palestine into radical organization and direct action. These funds should go to aid and peace efforts instead.
Also Gaza is NOT a war while Ukraine is, Gaza is a genocide.
In Ukraine organized military forces clash over territory with both sides fielding artillery, tanks, aircraft and other sophisticated military systems. Russia is seeking to control Ukraine and annex most of it, but it literally has to roll tanks all the way through contested territory to do this.
Israel already controls and surrounds all of Gaza, it controls all administrative and infrastructural aspects of Gaza so much so that Israel was able to build a wall straight through the heart of Gaza just to fuck with Palestinians. There is no ground war in Gaza with infantry divisions fighting over territory, there is just Israel repeatedly dropping an absolutely absurd amount of bombs (dropping in several weeks on the tiny footprint of Gaza what the bomb happy US only managed to drop in a year in the Iraq War) on a civilian population that has no means to leave even if they wanted to.
You don’t need to fight a war when you can just shut the water, lights and internet off to an entire city, you can shutter the hospitals with a lift of a finger. If there was a war, it was over long ago and what people call a “war” now is mere symbolic violent resistance meant to attract the attention of someone powerful enough to help (or stop). The thing that should make every one of us want to scream is the only problems the Israeli government sees with cut off water and let ‘em starve solution is that 1. it doesn’t kill Palestinians fast enough to sweep under the rug out of international scrutiny and 2. it doesn’t magically bulldoze the houses of the Palestinians killed and erased like a bomb does all in one go.
Hamas is not a terrorist organization because it chose to be one instead of a traditional army, it is a terrorist organization because a war with large armies is simply impossible for Hamas to even begin to fight against the combined military industrial complex of the U.S. and Israel. I say “begin” specifically because in order to fight a war with a military you have to first bring together all your soldiers and the minute Hamas did that Israel would carpet bomb the map square of that gathering place out of existence. War over before it even started.
I am not defending Hamas (I am so tired of saying this, of course they are awful) but simply pointing out Israel’s main justification for their genocide is that Hamas chooses to be a terrorist organization because they are evil and not because it is an organization of people who feel armed resistance is necessary (a sentiment Israeli’s should understand) and terrorism is literally the only armed resistance option on the table. It’s not like Hamas makes tunnels because they love digging and just don’t feel like fielding columns upon columns of 120mm main battle tanks they have in storage…
What is happening in Gaza is collective punishment for the actions of a few, it is genocide, it is horrific slaughter and land theft, it is a disgusting rightwing fantasy of violence but It is NOT a war that makes the IDF look way too honorable here. Gaza is what happens after a war ends and one side has complete power over the other. It is closer to soldiers raping and pillaging a civilian population en masse in the wake of an invasion than a war.
Well said.
Also Gaza is the size of basically just one neighborhood inside of Kiev alone. The scale of two the conflicts are so massively different. Many Americans I’ve discussed this with have no idea how much bigger Ukraine is.
Yeah that’s definately another great point. Ukraine and Palestine are both threatened by colonialist erasure, that’s the parallel I’d like to see drawn- they absolutely have that in common. Would love to see Israel and it’s nationalist government compared to Russia more often- there’s so much misinformation and misdirection in the news nowadays.
The more I think about it, we should just airstrike all the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish holy sites in Israel. There now there’s no reason to fight over your space wizards. Problem solved.
How does that end the occupation of Palestine?
It doesn’t this mfer is still living in 2015
Invasion? That some racist talk right there. Give them a notice to appear in court in the next five years and leave them alone.
Ah, so he wants to make sure that everyone gets funding, not just Israel.
How about NO MONEY TO THE MOTHER FUCKING GENOCIDE?
Yeah, what we need is the opposite bill: the one that helps Ukraine but not Israel.
He is not a dictator, you know? The other side argues for only genocide.
Yes, the lack of civic knowledge is sometimes frightening. I’m not one to say “both sides!”, but in this case, I see it on both the left and right: people who don’t seem to understand that most major bills in the US pass through compromise. This is true even when one party has a majority, because the US has some of the weakest party discipline of any system (eg people can vote against their party).
Your need to invoke Trump proves your brainwashing.
You were the first one to bring him up.
The mental gymnastics.
They clearly dropped the “the only good thing about Biden is that he isnt Trump, which is why you must vote for him” logic.
You dipshits are just getting categorically rejected on that logic so you are getting more vague about it so you can keep trolling.
You are acccusing them of invoking a thing that only you invoked and when you’re called out on it, you accuse everyone else of “mental gymnastics”?
I did not even think of Trump. He is not in government.
Bullshit.
Outrage should be reserved until it’s known what’s on the bill. It was drawn up by conservatives- I’d wager its purpose is to disenfranchise far left voters.
Anything drawn up by conservatives will be worthy of outrage. They’re not going to magically stop being monsters.
It’ll also be pork barreled up the ying yang.
And America wonders why it’s debt is so high. :(
That’s what the Schumer’s bill already was, which I guess Biden wants them to pass instead of separate single-issue bills. At least with separate bills, you could reject one or two and save billions.
Soooo exactly like the Inflation Reduction Act?
This is a straight up admission of being close minded. don’t get me wrong, one should be highly suspicious for the reason you state, but rejecting something you don’t even know about yet is the exact opposite of being a critical thinker.
Being gullible is also the exact opposite of being a critical thinker. And it is being very gullible to somehow still let the Republicans benefit from your doubt, despite knowing exactly why they are why they are and why they have been doing what they have been doing for decades now. All the while knowing that the factors which makes them that way has only increased the last couple of years.
But then again you are not really being gullible, are you, you are just being disingenous.
This is the same type of argument I come across when debating against COVID disinformation and climate change: politicians and/or scientists were wrong/exaggerated some things in the past, so that gives me the right to reject the facts now.
When were really hate a group of people, usually the reason is that we are much more like them than we are willing to admit.
Ive given the GOP rhetoric plenty of tine to simmer. I was born and raised in it.
It’s bullshit. It’s a pyramid scheme cult.
No matter what the words say, the agenda is unchanged.
Okay you reject their worldview. What does this have to do with my point?
You claimed the reason we don’t trust them now is hate, hate that blinds us.
My point is the reason we don’t trust them is historical evidence.
The scale is completely different though. You are committing a false equivalency fallacy.
The scale is inconsequential when it comes to ignoring facts because you believe someone lied to you in the past. The fact that this needs to be explained is kind of embarrassing.
Scale, context and nuance is absolutely everything, thinking in absolutist black and white terms makes you a child that just parrots without an ounce of critical thought, assuming that statements that are applicable to some situations are right for other situations, this is self-evident to everyone here except you, hence you’re getting clowned on.
Hope that explains it!
“Yes, the boy has cried wolf every day for the past decade. But it’s pretty close minded to think there probably isn’t a wolf this time.”
As I said in the other post, this is literally the same argument I hear from climate change deniers.
When were really hate a group of people, usually the reason is that we are much more like them than we are willing to admit.
We don’t so much hate them as we are tired of the same old predictable pattern of behavior.
I would like to interject here just to say that I do indeed hate them.
Lol the top level comment, to which I am responding, literally calls them monsters.
They are, as historically demonstrated time and time again in a consistent pattern up until today
It’s completely fair to reject anything they propose until it is clearly shown not to be bad. It is also fair not to examine everything in great detail and assume it will be bad until shown otherwise, because the track record is so strong.
It doesn’t mean being unwilling to listen to evidence, but it does mean not being willing to put in the effort to check it over without a strong reason to think that it might actually be different this time. Because they can and will put out a torrential deluge of crap just to exhaust people’s ability to critically analyze all of it.
This is moving the goal posts. The top level comment says it will be bad, now you are saying that it might not be bad and we should be open to it being good…but that it’s just hard to give everything full critical analysis because there is so much.
We are not all that far off from each other, I just think it’s better to hold no opinion in those situations. It’s okay to not have an opinion on something while also being highly suspicious of it.
But I think you may agree with me that claiming it will be bad is close minded.
they are just the opposite of conservatives who reject everything liberal or democrat
Republicans: *bigoted slurs*
Non-Republicans: Republicans are bigots.
You: Both sides are equally bad.
um. i think you replied to the wrong person. i have no clue what this has to do with my comment
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lol right to insults. wow.
my original comment 1) didnt mention republicans 2) didnt mention bigoted words and 3) did not compare “both sides as equally bad”
how exactly am i an idiot?
The poster didn’t say both sides are equally bad, they said the close minded people who reject everything because it comes from a Democrat are exactly the same as the close minded people who reject everything from Republicans. And they are absolutely right.
True, they just forgot to mention there are more conservatives than liberals like that
Do you have anything to back that up or is it simply that you want it to be true, so you’ll assume it’s true?
Isn’t Israel the ‘bigger fish’ in their conflict? I don’t question that our status is “allies”, but it’s so strange thinking they need “help”?
It’s even more gross if you read the article. Mike Johnson is saying Israel is “fighting for its very existence.” Fucking lying conservative trash.
Israel would have no chance of continueing its escalation with all the neighbouring countries if it wasnt for US military aid. They dont have the capacities to produce that many bombs, missiles, tank and artillery shells.
The US needs Israel to be at perpetual escalation and war to destabilize the Midlle East and prevent the emergence of an unified arab bloc that would be the size of the EU, but control many of the cheap oil ressources and vital trade routes.
Which neighbours is Israel escalating with? Only thing I read is they are returning fire to Hezbollah’s ‘show-of-sympathy-attacks’ and their supply lines from Iran - which is something they have been doing for decades
They have been bombing in Lebanon, Syria and Jordania. They claim to only “retaliate” against Hezbollah, but bombing Beirut, Damascus and Aleppo shows, that they are going beyond just defending themselves against Hezbollah. They try to escalate with Iran, so the US has to commit to all out war in the Middle East. While Biden is still reluctant, many US Elites are heavily advocating for all out war in the Middle East, like it could be seen with the recent dehumanization and call for genocide article in the New York Times.
They have been attacking Iran’s weapon supply lines to Hezbollah, as they have been doing for several decades. And to prevent, not cause, escalation, they are never attacking Iran directly.
Neither the strike on Aleppo, nor Damascus nor Beirut were about supply lines. The attacks in Syria were a show of force and to antagonize Iran further, by showing that their forces are vulnerable there too.
Do you think Iran arming Hezbollah and Hamas and installing a network of ‘logistical advisors’ is de-escalating the conflict?
I’m losing you here.
Hezbollah made clear in the beginning, that they are not interested in a stronger escalation. Your argument was that Hezbollah was supplied through these countries. Are you now claiming Hamas is supplied through them currently? There is about 200km of Israel, including most of the population centers between Lebanon and Gaza.
But to the other point. You seem to imply that escalation is partisan, e.g. there is the “good side” that is not escalating a conflict, when it uses violence and a “bad side” where any action in the conflict is seen as escalation, even actions preceeding violence. But that is not how conflicts work. You could just as easily claim that Iran had to arm these groups to prevent an escalation through deterrence. It would be equally silly.
In the currrent iteration of the conflict Israel is escalating things through attacking places that werent involved before to cause a stronger reaction, after Hezbollah showed in the beginning, that they were only interested in a “show of support” to Hamas but not a further escalation of fights.
If you look further at the motivations and opportunities of the actors, it becomes even more clear. Israel claims that Iran would have orchestrated the attack by Hamas. If that was the case, it would have made more sense for Hezbollah and other Iranian allies to immediately attack on 07. October or right after. Israel was in disarray, and the US didnt increase it’s military presence yet. Instead Hezbollah and Iran mostly left it at words, which indicates that Hamas was not acting on their behalf.
If we look at the motivation of Israel, we see a government that is extremely fragile, with a ptime minister charged with multiple crimes, who has failed his people on his only promise of safety and hasno support left in the public. The only thing keeping Netanyahu in power is a continued war. The global sentiment is changing, as Israel is now held responsible for its actions in Gaza at the ICJ and the arguement of “self defense” is less and less accepted with the level of destruction and death in Gaza. Israel needs to escalate tensions in order to stabilize international support.
Too bad the US power structure is tied to oil, it prevents our economy from shifting away from oil and freeing ourselves from the ME bullshit.
Israel would have no chance of continueing its escalation with all the neighbouring countries if it wasnt for US military aid. They dont have the capacities to produce that many bombs, missiles, tank and artillery shells.
That is simply false. Israel’s defense industry is one the world’s biggest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel
Israel doesn’t need U.S. aid. They just know they can get U.S. aid because they have the U.S. wrapped around their little finger.
It’s a great con. Get weapons for free from the U.S. while selling your own.
In your article it states that in 2022 they managed to export 12.5 billion worth of equipment. Elbit Systems, former IMI had a turnover of 5 billion dollars in 2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbit_Systems
In your article it also states that the main exports and focus are aerospace, in particular drones. But for a sustained war they mainly need missiles, artillery and tank shells and bombs. Of course they also need to be able to replace destroyed equipment such as tanks and artilleries. All of these need heavy industries, in particular steel and chemical industry. Israel has been importing iron and steel mainly from Turkey. If Turkey would continue to supply them is uncertain. They cannot manufacture all of the stuff by themselves. Especially as their sites are easily targeted in an upscaled war. The US are currently talking about an 18 billion military aid package. So 150% of the annual arms export rate of Israel.
If Israel goes to war with most of it’s neighbours it would be unlikely that countries like Egypt would allow for goods to pass into Israel. So the only way of keeping the war industry supplied would be by the Sea. But Israel doesn’t have a navy strong enough to secure the Mediterranian and the Red Sea. There is simply limits, to what a nation of 9 million people can do economically to supply their war machine.
Israel is too small to sustain a war without the US, UK or other big allies sending weapons and materials for weapon production.
Veto it.
Wish there was a rule barring packaging unrelated legislation
I don’t. We got the biggest and most important climate bill ever, likely in the entire world, by getting to ostensibly package it as an anti-inflation bill.
Politics is a game of negotiation and compromise. The same impulse as “nothing should ever be logrolled” is saying we should be entirely uncompromising on everything always.
If Ukraine and Israel aid were not bundlable, guess what? We’d get Israel and not Ukraine aid. The more deserving recipient wouldn’t get the aid.
We got the biggest and most important climate bill ever
Nah that bill got ruined by “negotiation and compromise” and opened up millions new acres of land leasing for oil and gas extraction. We’re gonna continue breaking emissions records every year
We’d get Israel and not Ukraine aid.
Because we’ve elected zionists and russian agents. And because of that this bill is likely to not pass, and each side can point at a different part of the bill to justify opposing it.
the biggest and most important climate bill ever, likely in the entire world
Lolwut
The negative far outweighs benefits .
It should be, but hasn’t since the early two thousands
A foreign aid package wouldn’t violate it
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Sounds like a win all around if he does. Israel does not need the help.
He still wants to find Israel, just as a part of a larger bill.
Both parties want Israel to continue. Just that the republicans want Putin to win the war in Ukraine.
I think Israel is somewhere in the middle east, but don’t tell Biden that.
findy, fendy, fundy
-Julius Caesar
How about we switch that around…
He said he would an that dickhead speaker still hasnt sheduled a vote on ukranian aid
that dickhead speaker
“Dickhead” is such a vast understatement it almost feels more like downplaying.
“That traitorous, christofascist, Russian shill speaker” better conveys the depths of the motherfucker’s depravity.
Your 100% right we really should send him to the front lines and tell him to advanve or get shot taste of his own i guess. And if we cant do that then i suppose executing him for treason would suffice.
Yep, genocide doesn’t come cheap.
That’s a very good thing for an old man to do.
If I absolutely have to pick a side on this dumpsterfire of a conflict then I’d choose Israel but I still don’t quite understand what they need military aid for when they’re already the bigger and more powerful military of the two. Is this so that they can blow up individual terrorists with a million dollar smart bombs so that they don’t need to put their own men at risk? This just seems stupid but then again I’m no military expert either so who cares what I think.
Try these then, the first video is short. Finkelstein is an expert on this issue, and his family was exterminated in the holocaust, except for his parents
Why would you choose Israel? They have already killed more civilians than Hamas has militants and has given no sign of slowing down, they have dropped over 20000 bombs, they aren’t trying to kill individual terrorists. Even people in Israel are turning against the IDF and Netenyahu.
Because I agree with why they’re attacking HAMAS, just not on how they’re doing it.
Why do you think Israel was attacked to begin with? Do you agree with Israel’s reason for attacking but not Palestine’s? I would say the same but in regards to the attack on Israel.
Even if I grant that they had a legitimate reason to attack Israel, that still doesn’t change the fact that it was a terrorist attack directed mostly at the civilian population. That makes you a perfectly legitimate target for retaliation in my eyes.
And before you say Israel is attacking the civilian population too and in greater numbers; I know, that’s why I said I don’t agree with how they’re doing it.
I haven’t seen anyone argue that the militants that attacked Israel aren’t legitimate targets in a war like this. I have doubts about the reports that they specifically targeted civilians more than military points or that there were orders to attack civilians. Even Israeli news has reported that many civilians killed on Oct. 7th were most likely killed by IDF.
Yeah well
Terrorism > genocide and concentration camps
Both sides can be bad at the same time. Just because you think Israel is worse it still doesn’t make HAMAS saints. This is binary thinking and world doesn’t work that way. Things are not black and white.
