As i always say its not the communists its the tankies. Communists want a different economic system but still agree on the equality of people and they can either want an autocratic or democratic system(from what i see simple communists usually want democracy). Then theres the tankies. They support full autocratic governments that are usually not even communitst like china and want a violent revolution. Often times they are even transphobic. Its the one group of people that annoys me more than nazis because they are basically nazis but on my side of the political compass. Also im socdem and have to explain to everyone that no that is not communism but tbf most people dont like communism because they teach its bad and not because they got to the conclusion with their own knowledge.
As i always say its not the communists its the tankies. Communists want a different economic system but still agree on the equality of people and they can either want an autocratic or democratic system(from what i see simple communists usually want democracy). Then theres the tankies. They support full autocratic governments that are usually not even communitst like china and want a violent revolution.
What do you mean by an “autocratic system?” All Communists support democratic systems, the idea of there being some especially evil Communists that don’t want democratic systems is unfounded. Additionally, all Communists want revolution, reformism is anti-Marxist to the core. The State and Revolution is around 25% Marx and Engels quotes and goes over why Marxists believe Revolution is the only path to Communism, and goes over how to make a far more democratic government.
Often times they are even transphobic.
Who? The far-right American Communist Party are not Communists and reject Marxism. The 3 most Communist-friendly Lemmy instances are the most militantly defensive of trans individuals on Lemmy.
Hexbear and Lemmygrad are the two explicitly Communist instances, and Lemmy.ml has Marxist-Leninist admins (though apparently they claim .ml is because it’s cheap, not for Marxism-Leninism).
Many red fash support the states of North Korea, Russia, China, etc.
Ofc “real commies” would never support any state. But there aren’t many real commies out there. Most identify as anarchists, nihilists, etc. in order to avoid ideology/terminology that’s largely been recuperated by authoritarianism, capitalism, statism, etc.
Many red fash support the states of North Korea, Russia, China, etc.
“Red-fash” isn’t a thing, except perhaps for PatSocs and MAGA Communists, like the aforementioned American Communist Party. There are Marxists, and Marxists generally defend AES. There are no Marxists who support Russia except in its anti-NATO stance.
Additionally, this doesn’t answer my question. What specifically makes a government authouritarian?
Ofc “real commies” would never support any state.
Are Marx, Engels, and Lenin not “real commies?” I suggest reading The State and Revolution, it’s around 25% Marx and Engels quotes and goes over the Marxist Theory of the State. Specifically, the Marxist position is that the State can’t be abolished overnight, so we must smash the Capitalist state and replace it with a more democratic worker-state that will itself work out contradictions, transitioning from a policing of people to an administration of things, a state-as-not-a-state.
Most identify as anarchists, nihilists, etc. in order to avoid ideology/terminology that’s largely been recuperated by authoritarianism.
Ah, that’s why you didn’t answer the authoritarian question and reject the Marxist analysis of the State, you’re an Anarchist and are trying to claim full ownership of the word “Communism” and reject all of Marxism itself. I suggest reading Marxist theory, not just Goldman and Kropotkin.
Why do you think the ACP is right wing and reject Marxism? Literally they mention being Marxist-Leninist multiple times on the website you link. Nothing I’ve ever heard them espouse has been right wing, but I’d love if you could point me to some analysis that explains how you arrived at that conclusion.
The ACP is a group of PatSocs, also known as MAGA Communism. They advocate for Patriotism and Nationalism within the Imperial Core, as opposed to an emphasis on Internationalism, which means it is opportunist and revisionist at minimum and plays into the hands of Imperialists. Ie, PatSocs side with the Imperialist Capitalists of their own country and advocate for central planning and other “Marxist” ideas.
They are similar to the German Nazi Party but with more lip service to Marxism.
This is not to be confused with the Communist Party of the USA, which is Reformist and thus Revisionist.
Similarly, when I learned the error of my ways and decide to join the American socialist party, I learned that they were just a bunch of trans-fascists using the name and popularity of Socialism. This is a new world folks, nothing is as it appears.
Academic question: are they really on your side of the political compass if they want less democracy and less trans rights?
Socialism means shared control of the factors of production… if the control isn’t shared, then de jure landlords are just replaced by de facto “landlords”, like in Animal Farm.
Yes but the political compass is a vast oversimplification of ones opionions. Think about it. How can nazism, a social ideology, be on the same axis as communism, an economical idiology. This is part of what im trying to point out in the original comment. Its interesting how you can be both a communist and a tankie but on the right side its basically just nazi nothing else. The left side is much more diverse as you bunch in basically everyone who isnt a nazi. The problem is the right often masquerades as something else and then slowly pulls people to nazism while on the left side we are always arguing with ourselves over smaller matters while we let the right eat up everything.
Personally I think ancaps are way different from Nazis, despite both being far right. Fascism is a merger of state and corporate power, which makes it at least partially an economic ideology.
on the contrary, communism is the final form of democracy.
capitalism != democracy because capital owners have a disproportionate amount of social, economic and political power, if not all. in a capitalist society the laws and police are there largely to protect and preserve capital and not you.
I didn’t say anything about capitalism being natural. I said the final stage, anarcho-syndicalism, is probably unachievable. And no, human nature is not whatever we do with it. You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear. There will be people like that regardless of how you wish to remake the world unless you find a way to genetically engineer it all out of us. Because all of those things go back to our primate roots.
To quote you: “You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear.”
Please point to the words ‘violent mental illness’ in your original post. Now take your yellow highlighter pen and color it on your screen. Actually, use a Sharpie - what the hell. Maybe next time you’ll see it and remember not to speak out of turn.
If you mean to say that ‘violent tendencies’ is necessarily equivalent to ‘violent mental illness’, I would counter that they are two different things. I would say that people in the armed forces have violent tendencies. Police officers have violent tendencies. But violent mental illness is a completely different thing. Violent mental illness implies that the violence is not a rational response to the situation at hand.
So, sorry I took away your little 'Gotcha!" moment.
i didn’t mean to imply you said capitalism is natural. i meant there’s nothing natural about it yet the entire world revolves around it and has been for quite a while. if you put a system in place human nature is irrelevant. murder is “natural”. we have laws against it. anarchism shouldn’t be just total chaos, it just removes unnecessary hierarchies.
things like jealousy and violence are usually linked to economic and social hardship, and in a fair economic and free social system it should either go away or be the result of psychological problems which should have remedies in an anarchist system as well.
Read The State and Revolution. Communists support the replacement of bourgeois “democracy” with far more democratic structures via a popular revolution. Asserting the will of the many against the will of the minority is democratic.
Revolution is a mass popular movement to remove the minority from power to install the majority. A revolutionary movement without mass backing is not successful. Revolution is not done via election, yes, but that does not mean it is not democratic.
Communism is based on revolution, to remove the bad apples, not on democracy & voting.
Communism uses a revolution to create a more democratic system than the prior dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
You all in this thread are like Good!=Bad ? Nooo there is good in bad!!
No idea what this means.
Democracy and Communism are two very (very) distinct systems. What did you do in school to confound or conflate the two of them?
Communists advocate for mass popular movement and the installation of a democratic worker-state that will wither away over time into an administration of things, rather than a policing of people.
I get what you are going at, but I just hate the muddying of the waters.
Thanks for the link but I know enough about political systems (theoretical and real, and those to oretend be) and don’t need some random indoctrination ;-)
Communists advocate asserting the will of the majority to make a more democratic system. Both sides are democratic, even if they aren’t reformist.
Thanks for the link but I know enough about political systems (theoretical and real, and those to oretend be) and don’t need some random indoctrination ;-)
How is it “indoctrination?” Why speak about Communism at all if you don’t know what Communists are talking about in the first place?
I do know what communism is, I do not need to read some random book you refer to to “understand”.
So I should read books that communists are talking about?
That’s indoctrination 101.
Go get a history book instead or trying to pump up your communism with cozy democracy.
Democracy is good, communism is an utopian dream that is very nice but never functions, like anarchism and a bunch of others. But I guess your book says that it can work, like for real this time.
You don’t need to answer, we’re on completely different wavelengths here.
Good luck with your communism though, I’m staying in democracy!
I do know what communism is, I do not need to read some random book you refer to to “understand”.
So I should read books that communists are talking about?
Evidently you do not understand if you don’t even know what Communists advocate and are unwilling to learn, despite your protests otherwise.
Go get a history book instead or trying to pump up your communism with cozy democracy.
I have, I recommend Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti. Super good book on what did and didn’t work in the USSR, and how it was dissolved, and how the Capitalist aftermath killed 7 million people. Communism is perfectly compatible with democracy because it’s democratic.
Democracy is good, communism is an utopian dream that is very nice but never functions, like anarchism and a bunch of others. But I guess your book says that it can work, like for real this time.
Communism did and does work. Communists are anti-Utopian, they don’t believe there’s a magic system you can just will into existence if everyone believes hard enough, but instead must be built. I suggest reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific for more information, it goes over the failures of Utopian Socialists like the Owenites and how Marxism is Scientific instead.
You don’t need to answer, we’re on completely different wavelengths here.
Evidently. I advocate for reading and learning about subjects before speaking about them, and you advocate for deliberately not reading lest you be “corrupted” or “indoctrinated.” I have engaged with Liberalism all my life, and don’t consider myself “indoctrinated” by it despite that, so I don’t think reading a single book or two will “indoctrinate” you.
Good luck with your communism though, I’m staying in democracy!
Again, Communism is democratic, just not reformist.
Communism is just a desire/plan for having democratic control over the economic sphere as well as the political sphere. The authoritarian stuff is just some people taking a more rapid/paternalistic approach to achieving it.
As i always say its not the communists its the tankies. Communists want a different economic system but still agree on the equality of people and they can either want an autocratic or democratic system(from what i see simple communists usually want democracy). Then theres the tankies. They support full autocratic governments that are usually not even communitst like china and want a violent revolution. Often times they are even transphobic. Its the one group of people that annoys me more than nazis because they are basically nazis but on my side of the political compass. Also im socdem and have to explain to everyone that no that is not communism but tbf most people dont like communism because they teach its bad and not because they got to the conclusion with their own knowledge.
What do you mean by an “autocratic system?” All Communists support democratic systems, the idea of there being some especially evil Communists that don’t want democratic systems is unfounded. Additionally, all Communists want revolution, reformism is anti-Marxist to the core. The State and Revolution is around 25% Marx and Engels quotes and goes over why Marxists believe Revolution is the only path to Communism, and goes over how to make a far more democratic government.
Who? The far-right American Communist Party are not Communists and reject Marxism. The 3 most Communist-friendly Lemmy instances are the most militantly defensive of trans individuals on Lemmy.
Ooh! Ooh! Who are the three most communist friendly Lemmy instances and do they want to be friends?
Hexbear and Lemmygrad are the two explicitly Communist instances, and Lemmy.ml has Marxist-Leninist admins (though apparently they claim .ml is because it’s cheap, not for Marxism-Leninism).
Many red fash support the states of North Korea, Russia, China, etc.
Ofc “real commies” would never support any state. But there aren’t many real commies out there. Most identify as anarchists, nihilists, etc. in order to avoid ideology/terminology that’s largely been recuperated by authoritarianism, capitalism, statism, etc.
“Red-fash” isn’t a thing, except perhaps for PatSocs and MAGA Communists, like the aforementioned American Communist Party. There are Marxists, and Marxists generally defend AES. There are no Marxists who support Russia except in its anti-NATO stance.
Additionally, this doesn’t answer my question. What specifically makes a government authouritarian?
Are Marx, Engels, and Lenin not “real commies?” I suggest reading The State and Revolution, it’s around 25% Marx and Engels quotes and goes over the Marxist Theory of the State. Specifically, the Marxist position is that the State can’t be abolished overnight, so we must smash the Capitalist state and replace it with a more democratic worker-state that will itself work out contradictions, transitioning from a policing of people to an administration of things, a state-as-not-a-state.
Ah, that’s why you didn’t answer the authoritarian question and reject the Marxist analysis of the State, you’re an Anarchist and are trying to claim full ownership of the word “Communism” and reject all of Marxism itself. I suggest reading Marxist theory, not just Goldman and Kropotkin.
Why do you think the ACP is right wing and reject Marxism? Literally they mention being Marxist-Leninist multiple times on the website you link. Nothing I’ve ever heard them espouse has been right wing, but I’d love if you could point me to some analysis that explains how you arrived at that conclusion.
The ACP is a group of PatSocs, also known as MAGA Communism. They advocate for Patriotism and Nationalism within the Imperial Core, as opposed to an emphasis on Internationalism, which means it is opportunist and revisionist at minimum and plays into the hands of Imperialists. Ie, PatSocs side with the Imperialist Capitalists of their own country and advocate for central planning and other “Marxist” ideas.
They are similar to the German Nazi Party but with more lip service to Marxism.
This is not to be confused with the Communist Party of the USA, which is Reformist and thus Revisionist.
Thanks for elaborating.
Sounds a lot like the USSR, were they not PatSocs?
Nope. The USSR obviously wasn’t in the Imperial core.
Similarly, when I learned the error of my ways and decide to join the American socialist party, I learned that they were just a bunch of trans-fascists using the name and popularity of Socialism. This is a new world folks, nothing is as it appears.
Scared of discussing now are we?
Blocked lol
You obviously have not once been operating in good faith, so I stopped engaging.
Yes everybody wants a democratic system until that democratic system picks the guy/gal that you don’t like. Then the mail-in ballots come out.
They like to be called tankies. It makes them feel powerful and vanguardy.
Just call them red fash. More accurate.
The real fascists are the ones who put fascists in jail instead of in charge of nato
Academic question: are they really on your side of the political compass if they want less democracy and less trans rights?
Socialism means shared control of the factors of production… if the control isn’t shared, then de jure landlords are just replaced by de facto “landlords”, like in Animal Farm.
Please stop talking about there being “a political compass” for crying out loud!
Ok then same question but without “of the political compass”
Yes but the political compass is a vast oversimplification of ones opionions. Think about it. How can nazism, a social ideology, be on the same axis as communism, an economical idiology. This is part of what im trying to point out in the original comment. Its interesting how you can be both a communist and a tankie but on the right side its basically just nazi nothing else. The left side is much more diverse as you bunch in basically everyone who isnt a nazi. The problem is the right often masquerades as something else and then slowly pulls people to nazism while on the left side we are always arguing with ourselves over smaller matters while we let the right eat up everything.
Personally I think ancaps are way different from Nazis, despite both being far right. Fascism is a merger of state and corporate power, which makes it at least partially an economic ideology.
Does anybody else find it interesting that the name Nazi referred to national socialists? Now apply that to this discussion.
Communism != Democracy.
You are maybe thinking of socio democracy.
For the tankies, spot on though.
Edit: what the hell people, communism is power to the people through revolution, there’s no fucking democracy in it.
Democracy is democracy, not communism smh.
Edit: In a democratic way I guess, all my comments were removed. Lots of commie bots here lol
on the contrary, communism is the final form of democracy.
capitalism != democracy because capital owners have a disproportionate amount of social, economic and political power, if not all. in a capitalist society the laws and police are there largely to protect and preserve capital and not you.
Well, I mean, we are capital in a sense…
I would suggest that the final form would be anarcho-syndicalism.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
I also think our basic human natures make such cooperative systems unlikely on any large scale.
I’m using communism as a bit of a catch-all term. the specifics are not my concern so long as the people hold the power.
and i disagree with your statement there. human nature is whatever we do with it. there’s nothing natural about capitalism.
I didn’t say anything about capitalism being natural. I said the final stage, anarcho-syndicalism, is probably unachievable. And no, human nature is not whatever we do with it. You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear. There will be people like that regardless of how you wish to remake the world unless you find a way to genetically engineer it all out of us. Because all of those things go back to our primate roots.
Education?
How do you educate away violent mental illness?
To quote you: “You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear.”
Please point to the words ‘violent mental illness’ in your original post. Now take your yellow highlighter pen and color it on your screen. Actually, use a Sharpie - what the hell. Maybe next time you’ll see it and remember not to speak out of turn.
If you mean to say that ‘violent tendencies’ is necessarily equivalent to ‘violent mental illness’, I would counter that they are two different things. I would say that people in the armed forces have violent tendencies. Police officers have violent tendencies. But violent mental illness is a completely different thing. Violent mental illness implies that the violence is not a rational response to the situation at hand.
So, sorry I took away your little 'Gotcha!" moment.
i didn’t mean to imply you said capitalism is natural. i meant there’s nothing natural about it yet the entire world revolves around it and has been for quite a while. if you put a system in place human nature is irrelevant. murder is “natural”. we have laws against it. anarchism shouldn’t be just total chaos, it just removes unnecessary hierarchies.
things like jealousy and violence are usually linked to economic and social hardship, and in a fair economic and free social system it should either go away or be the result of psychological problems which should have remedies in an anarchist system as well.
Psychological problems only have humane remedies in such a system if the person with the problem agrees to the remedy. What if they don’t?
i don’t agree. if you’re an aggressor, it’s not inhumane to require you to stop. a free society doesn’t mean you’re free to hurt people.
Read The State and Revolution. Communists support the replacement of bourgeois “democracy” with far more democratic structures via a popular revolution. Asserting the will of the many against the will of the minority is democratic.
Revolution isn’t democracy.
Communism is based on revolution, to remove the bad apples, not on democracy & voting.
You all in this thread are like Good!=Bad ? Nooo there is good in bad!!
Democracy and Communism are two very (very) distinct systems. What did you do in school to confound or conflate the two of them?!
Revolution is a mass popular movement to remove the minority from power to install the majority. A revolutionary movement without mass backing is not successful. Revolution is not done via election, yes, but that does not mean it is not democratic.
Communism uses a revolution to create a more democratic system than the prior dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
No idea what this means.
Communists advocate for mass popular movement and the installation of a democratic worker-state that will wither away over time into an administration of things, rather than a policing of people.
Read the book I linked.
Democratic and democracy isn’t the same thing.
I get what you are going at, but I just hate the muddying of the waters.
Thanks for the link but I know enough about political systems (theoretical and real, and those to oretend be) and don’t need some random indoctrination ;-)
Communists advocate asserting the will of the majority to make a more democratic system. Both sides are democratic, even if they aren’t reformist.
How is it “indoctrination?” Why speak about Communism at all if you don’t know what Communists are talking about in the first place?
I do know what communism is, I do not need to read some random book you refer to to “understand”.
So I should read books that communists are talking about?
That’s indoctrination 101.
Go get a history book instead or trying to pump up your communism with cozy democracy.
Democracy is good, communism is an utopian dream that is very nice but never functions, like anarchism and a bunch of others. But I guess your book says that it can work, like for real this time.
You don’t need to answer, we’re on completely different wavelengths here.
Good luck with your communism though, I’m staying in democracy!
Evidently you do not understand if you don’t even know what Communists advocate and are unwilling to learn, despite your protests otherwise.
I have, I recommend Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti. Super good book on what did and didn’t work in the USSR, and how it was dissolved, and how the Capitalist aftermath killed 7 million people. Communism is perfectly compatible with democracy because it’s democratic.
Communism did and does work. Communists are anti-Utopian, they don’t believe there’s a magic system you can just will into existence if everyone believes hard enough, but instead must be built. I suggest reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific for more information, it goes over the failures of Utopian Socialists like the Owenites and how Marxism is Scientific instead.
Evidently. I advocate for reading and learning about subjects before speaking about them, and you advocate for deliberately not reading lest you be “corrupted” or “indoctrinated.” I have engaged with Liberalism all my life, and don’t consider myself “indoctrinated” by it despite that, so I don’t think reading a single book or two will “indoctrinate” you.
Again, Communism is democratic, just not reformist.
never… except all the times they have
Don’t waste your time with permanently online commies
They are too self unaware to even know how dumb they sound and unfortunately infest this site like some kind of fruit flies. Harmless but annoying
I even sometimes collect their hot takes for public viewing elsewhere. It is never ending source of entertainment
However, revolution is a form of democracy. Direct action by the People.
Communism is just a desire/plan for having democratic control over the economic sphere as well as the political sphere. The authoritarian stuff is just some people taking a more rapid/paternalistic approach to achieving it.
This thread is just getting better.
Communism is not authoritarian, you’re mixing up dictatorships calling themselves communists with communism.
Words are important.
Communism and Democracy are not mutually exclusive, they are on two different axes.
You’re thinking of Communism and Capitalism, which are polar opposites.