A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.
That will never happen while Netanyahu and his regime are in power. And the only time steps were taken in that direction, the Israeli Prime Minister got assassinated.
Assassinated by hard line Israelis who refuse to accept any type of two states solution. I have always wondered if we would have seen a true two state solution if Yitzhak Rabin hadn’t been shot. I think it probably would have happened.
After reading his biography I fully believe that he could have created Middle East peace he could have been so fucking great he was a good man
The crazy thing is he wasn’t some flower in the hair, love and peace is all we need kind of guy. he was part of the IDF and fought in several of the early conflicts. Then once he entered politics he was the defense minister for 10 years. He had the makings of any hardliner. But he was a guy that believed that peace was the only way forward for a conflict. A soldier who knew war and knew peace was the better choice.
Yeah that’s the best part about it… I firmly believe he was the last chance
Basically one part of the Israeli independence war was a small civil war between left and right Zionists. The lefties won (being more numerous and frankly more popular, after WWII and all) and created a left-nationalist secular state with some meritocratic pretense, friendly with USSR but also with France and UK and USA.
Then they realized the need for pluralism and let the righties back into politics (because of need for their participation and their representation in the military and elsewhere). The righties frankly were more normal then, but that both made them an acceptable force in Israeli politics and still didn’t remove the memory of that small civil war.
And then, after this assassination, a new force came in - the new generation of Irgun cosplayer righties, which wasn’t normal in any sense of the word. By now these cosplayers have hijacked the social discourse in Israel to the level where they both demonize the remaining lefties and the remaining lefties barely make any difference.
The problem with cosplayers is that they need to be grotesquely evil. Otherwise they won’t seem real enough. They also need to be grotesquely dumb. Otherwise their ideology’s inconsistencies will break them apart. Same as with Turkish state being (somewhat) more vegetarian and intelligent than Azerbaijan.
I think Clinton may have been the last individual human that could have prevented catastrophe in Gaza. He should have capitilised on it and essentially refused to take no as an answer from Israel. Instead, he just kind of went “oh well”, and here we are.
or while the us is interested in maintaining their geopolitical presence in the region.
honestly i doubt it would be that easy at all.
nor will the Hamas remain peaceful…
Considering they’re the only ones offering to lay down arms, I’d say they’re more likely to be peaceful than the IDF and Netanyahu, who are not making such an offer.
They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
So yeah they may lay their weapons down, but they never remain peaceful.
Source: https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html?guccounter=1
Okay? I still only see one side saying they’re willing to lay down arms. “This will end when we get an independent state” vs. “this will end when you’re all dead?” The former seems more reasonable to me. Your mileage may vary.
Your mileage may vary.
It does. I agree that Netanyahu has to go and Palestine should have the chance to be independend, but the Hamas has also to be put down for good. With those terrorist fucks and their degenerated supporters, there will be no peace in the middle east.
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
Mission Accomplished! Haliburton won ^ every contract^
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
Not that bad since Osama and Zawahiri are dead. Their last big terrorist attack against America was when, 2010? Against the west in general, in France 2015? Since then they pretty much done or in a clash with the Taliban. If we can do the same with the Hamas, I would call it a win.
You can’t shoot an idea. The only way to kill Hamas for good would be genocide. Or actually solving the underlying problem with Palestine, and so starving them of redicalised recruits.
If Palestine wasn’t oppressed, no one would be joining Hamas and they would have no power. This is a problem Isreal created for themselves.
I recommend this video, it really shows how what Isreal calls peace is still so oppressive.
They shouldn’t be ashamed to say it. Israel has no place on their land and should be removed. We aren’t talking about mom and pop tourists but militants that are forcing people out of their homes and killing their children.
What the fuck are you smoking?
Removed by mod
They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
Now do Israel with the same energy.
It’s pointless arguing this on Lemmy. Everyone here is convinced that the Islamic jihadists are oppressed and just want peace despite what they actually say and do.
I’m not saying that. You guys seem to think Arabs are born angry, though, and so can’t be dealt with just by not being consistently a bastard yourself.
Hey what’s your thoughts on manifest destiny? Just curious
Never heard of it
How do you feel about Irish independence then?
Hamas does not break ceasefire deals. Israel does that.
Israeli troops fire at Palestinians attempting to return to northern Gaza during cease-fire
What is it with your constant attempts at whitewashing Hamas? There were four alerts in Israel due to rockets launched from Gaza on that same day.
He needs it as background for his “Voting for Biden is voting for genocide”-LARPing. In my opinion he’s a rightwinger trying to muddy the waters (as if Trump would do fuck all about Gaza)
That day was at the start of the ceasefire.
The Hamas rockets were after the ceasefire.
Notice the week in between?
There was an effective ceasefire before 7th October (apart from the random rockets fired Israel’s way) that was broken pretty badly. Making a ceasefire deal with terrorists that attacked you and took hostages and will never stop attacking you makes no sense.
Effective ceasefire = israel commits Genocide and nobody fights back?
24 September 2023 - Israeli airstrikes hit Gaza for the 3rd day in a row as West Bank violence intensifies
Nobody fights back? You’re having a laugh. They attack Israel constantly. That’s their faith and their purpose to get to paradise. Stop ignoring what they actually say
Israel just “defended themselves” onto Palestinian land and those Untermensch in their concentration camp should shut up and do nothing back for the rest of their lives! How dare Palestinians resist against their brutal oppressors! They should roll over and die in without fighting back like PA does in the West Bank!
But anyways, what was that about a ‘ceasefire’ before oct7?
You’re a terrorist sympathiser. They are not fighting in resistance because they’re oppressed. They’re trying to wipe out Israel because their holy book tells them to.
Effective ceasefire = israel commits Genocide and nobody fights back?
Keep moving those goalposts.
Did you read the date before jumping in to defend israel? Not a single goalpost has been moved here.
From “Holsum Hamas would never break ceasefires!” to “Well the so-called ‘ceasefires’ are just cover for Israeli genocide anyway”
Lmao, fuck this guy. He doesn’t give two fucks about Palestine or its people.
The Hamas leadership are a bunch of wealthy old men who live abroad in comfort.
Sounds familiar
It is. There’s remarkable symmetry to this (and most) conflicts, in a way.
The fact that a large number of people in the West are denying this and portraying Hamas as freedom fighters is very worrying.
There’s something in the world of intelligence called the “useful idiot”. It’s basically someone who drinks the Kool aid you’re selling and unwittingly works for your agency/country/organization.
Don’t overestimate the wisdom of the average Joe of the Western world.
I just love how many people from “the world of intelligence” knowing all their stuff you can meet on the Web. That’s an /s .
Don’t overestimate the wisdom of the average Joe of the Western world.
My first step in approaching the wisdom of any specific Joe, though, would be whether he considers himself all that smart and cynical or, well, about average. The latter would be wiser.
Well then who is Israel attacking? If Hamas is in Qatar?
You can’t be seriously asking this in good faith.
The fact that a large number of people in the West are waking up from the Zionist propaganda is very worrying to you?
Israel being evil doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. If you butcher unarmed men, women, and children, then you’re fucking evil. Fuck Isreal, and fuck Hamas.
In Western news and media, everything has to boil down to a good vs evil story. It’s part of the reason our society has become so polarized. In reality, there’s often no good sides in a conflict.
Trevor Noah had a great segment on this, about how it always has to be X vs Y. The example he used was cat people and dog people who get into arguments – “why can’t we just agree that they’re both cute?”
“Hitler being evil doesn’t make the Allies the good guys! They bombed Dresden and killed many German civilians!”
“Everyone who does a war crime is equally evil and if you aren’t perfect when you fight back against being Genocided you are equally as evil as the party doing the Genocide!”
Is the PA going to stop israel doing Genocide? Were you doing it? Was America doing it?
Nobody was doing it. Nobody cared. So Hamas fought back. Nobody did anything when they peacefully protested in 2018. Don’t complain now.
Hamas “fought back” by breaking down the doors of Israeli homes and slaughtering the families cowering inside. Gunning down teenagers at a music festival and kidnapping the survivors. That wasn’t strategy. That was fanatical hatred, cowardly, and evil.
Hamas are cowards, perfectly happy to sit back and watch innocent Palestinians be slaughtered in the aftermath.
The IDF has killed 11 thousand men, 9 thousand women, and 14 thousand children, making 34 thousand total killed (an unknown number of which were civilians). Hamas has killed 0.6 thousand military personnel and 0.8 thousand civilians, making 1.4 thousand total killed (57% of which were civilians).
The number of children killed by Isreal (only children) is 17 times larger than the number of civilians killed by Hamas. Of course that doesn’t make killing civilians OK, but I struggle to see an argument that Hamas is worse than the IDF. And if Hamas is the only method by which Palestine can defend itself, then there is a solid argument to be made for it being the lesser evil.
Both groups are murderers. One is just better equipped for it. Hamas hasn’t killed less civilians out of some kind of restraint or combat disipline, they just don’t have the same capability as the IDF. Meanwhile, Israel is gleefully using all the free shit that it’s allies are supplying it with to kill every man woman and child in sight. Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.
If you ever find yourself on either side of asymmetric warfare, and you’re killing kids…you’re the bad guy.
And accidentally killing 33% IDF soldiers and destroying every military base next to the Gaza strip. Just pure coincidence.
Hamas has the civilian casualty rate which israel claims the IDF has. And israel has to lie about it.
Actually 45% soldiers. 824 civilians were killed and 678 soldiers and police were killed on October 7th, according to Israel.
Hamas killed soldiers so that they would free to go on their rampage against civilians. Israel accidentally kills civilians as they are trying to fight an enemy that hides behind them and camouflages themselves as civilians precisely to blur the lines between civilians and soldiers. That’s the difference between the two.
At some point you might learn that simplistic, childish concepts of pure good and evil rarely apply in this world. Yes, the Allies were the good guys in WW2. Being the good guy doesn’t mean you’re perfect, because absolutely nothing is.
At some point you might learn that lesson yourself.
Go find out what the ANC did in South Africa to free themself from their colonizers. Go find out how the Haitans rebelled against their colonizers. Go learn how the American Natives fought back against their colonizers.
Hamas colonial resistance was probably one of the most targeted in all of history with a 33%+ soldier kill rate. But of course nothing is good enough for those that demand absolute perfection from angry people in a concentration camp.
Like the other user said, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa only became successful after it abandoned violent resistance - and citing Haiti as an aspirational example is downright hysterical.
There’s also a massive difference between demanding outright perfection and not applauding people who behead Asian guest workers (who, as I’m sure you are aware, but equally willing to ignore, are not “evil Zionist colonizers”) with a rusty gardening hoe while live-streaming the torture-murder on the Internet. Coincidentally, you seem to have no trouble with demanding outright perfection from the IDF, who, by the way, has a roughly similar soldier kill rate in this conflict according to most estimates - but I bet you are not willing to applaud them for that.
As for what Gaza actually was, here’s what this supposed “concentration camp” looked like before the war:
The ANC in South Africa was largely ineffective. Mandela specifically is a great example of how people can get much more done as moderates than violent radicals. He would never see any sort of true progress until after his imprisonment and subsequent putting down of arms.
Hamas colonial resistance was probably one of the most targeted in all of history with a 33%+ soldier kill rate. But of course nothing is good enough for those that demand absolute perfection from angry people in a concentration camp.
What the fuck
Pick pretty much any conflict other than WWII. Like WWI. All bastards.
That’s the fun part about ww2. People in concentration camps makes everything very black and white.
Unless they are brown I guess.
It’s not a concentration camp, it’s just a non-exitable area surrounded by barbed wire with not enough food let in. (mostly /s, the OG camps were worse, but really, is that the bar we want to set?)
Is the PA going to stop israel doing Genocide? Were you doing it? Was America doing it?
… is fucking Hamas doing it right now? Because from what I see, Israel is closer to completing their genocide than they have been in my lifetime. Sure as fuck doesn’t look like they’ve STOPPED anything, but rather poured gasoline on the fire.
Israel is further from completing their Genocide than they have ever been. They used to be able to just slowly take over land with full international support. Israel is now the pariah of the world and the Abraham accords are gone. Hamas has taken off the mask and shown israel as the Nazis they are.
but rather poured gasoline on the fire.
TIL fighting against the fire = pouring gasoline on it.
People keep claiming that what Hamas did will lead to nothing for the Palestinians. The only thing we can be certain of is that not fighting back will have ensured they burned to death slowly. We’re currently seeing mass protests on college campuses, is that because people are really mad israel is doing a Genocide in the West Bank right now too?
People keep claiming that what Hamas did will lead to nothing for the Palestinians. The only thing we can be certain of is that not fighting back will have ensured they burned to death slowly.
The only thing we can be certain of is that Hamas’s attack has led to Israel genociding some 30,000 Palestinians. The fuck makes you think killing a bunch of civilians is in any way fighting for any cause other than extending the conflict? But neither Hamas nor you care about that; only drum-beating for Islamofascism using Palestinian independence as a shield for that shitfuckery. Fucking insane.
Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place. If it works then you have peace.
Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place.
Alright, while on a moral level this offer would be definitely the right thing to accept (ASSUMING complete good faith), it could be much, MUCH worse. Hamas has shown a willingness and ability to commit to large-scale attacks on Israel - considering the long, long history of antisemitic and genocidal rhetoric Hamas officials have engaged in, “Five years of not disrupting an enemy’s plans and organization” is a five-year recipe for an even-better coordinated and funded attack.
Follow the North Ireland model independent verification of compliance (on both sides).
The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.
(Will there be splinter hardliners? Sure! There is a civil war at the end of Independence. But there is a promise of peace after the civil war.)
The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.
Yes, like I said, assuming complete good faith. But even then, laying down their arms wouldn’t mean that fighters for their cause would no longer exist; it would simply mean that a better-organized Palestinian military would take its place.
My point isn’t “Five year truce bad”, it’s “Five year truce good but there ARE reasons to not accept it even from an abstract standpoint”
A better organized Palestinian military is a natural consequence of independence. And ideally yes, the best trained Hamas fighters will be joining it and be under government control, fighting against the hardliner splinters to enforce the hypothetical Independence Peace agreement, rather than being the hardliner splinters.
The road to peace will be very very messy. It is the bed Israel made and has to sleep on. The time when a relatively clean, peaceful transition to 2SS could have happened was right after Oslo. But here we are and it’s either a super messy transition to 2SS that will require nerves of steel to not intervene in the civil war, or a super messy transition transition to a democratic post-apartheid 1SS that will also require nerves of steel and a political and cultural transformation. Or … the ethnic cleansing, which hardliners in both Israel and Palestine dream of and we all dread.
hamas can’t commit large-scale attacks on israel… Nobody can… Does anybody remember the iron fucking Dome that they have? Nobody is attacking Israel it’s retarded to think that they are.
Peace doesn’t sell arms (weapons)
Peace means Israelis can’t steal land from people their government murdered.
If you consider that Hamas only exists to fight against Israeli oppression over an ineffective PA, it makes sense that if the oppression ends, Hamas becomes irrelevant.
That’s a chicken and egg problem, though, isn’t it: Netanyahu’s government wants Hamas because the conflict keeps Bibi out of prison, and Hamas wants to remain relevant. All the same, the Israeli and Palestinian people are the ones who suffer due to both regimes being in power, and Hamas doesn’t shed its guilt just because Israel doesn’t want a reasonable Palestinian government. Neither side wants to blink because they have multi-generational hatred for the other side, and that means popular support for further violence probably isn’t going anywhere. You back down! No, you back down!
The result is that neither side is going to take real steps to deescalate, because both sides benefit from the conflict. That the Palestinians are suffering more, by orders of magnitude, doesn’t make either side’s position any less entrenched: Bibi wants to stay in power (and free), and Hamas wants to remain relevant and in power, and they’re more justified now than ever. Both regimes need to be replaced.
It’s important to note that for most of its existence, “fighting against Israeli oppression” explicitly meant Israel no longer existing. This is the first time I can remember them even implying that they would accept a two state solution.
they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli law student who didn’t believe in the peace talks. Hamas didn’t even kill him, Israel did it. No fucking surprise there.
You saying Israel killed him is like saying Palestine committed Oct. 7th’s terrorist attack.
Israel didn’t kill the guy, a lone Israeli student did. This is one of those times when facts and nuance matter.
Hamas was also not in power back then, in no position to accept or reject any solution.
they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.
That was Fatah, not Hamas. Hamas was irrelevant back in the 90s and didn’t rise to prominence until the mid-2000s.
That was in the 70’s, he was killed by a student, not the government.
And the PA, including Yasser Arafat, have turned it down 4 or 5 times. Yasser Arafat turned it down last time in 2002/2004(?). They have never taken it seriously.
Camp Davis and the Oslo Accords were a way for Israel to change the De Facto annexation of the West Bank into a De Juro annexation. While giving the PA a ‘semblence’ of a state still under Israeli Military Control. There was no offer of a sovereign state, nor of right of return. Arafat didn’t reject a Two-State Solution, he walked away from a verbal ‘offer’ of taking 90% (later ~80% once written up in Oslo) of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, while ignoring all Palestinian wants such as Right of Return and Sovereignty with an end to Occupation.
Camp David: a tragedy of errors - The Guardian
Deconstructing Camp David - Al Jazeera
What Really Happened Between Barak and Arafat at Camp David? - Haaretz
Oslo accords: 30 years on, the dream of a two-state solution seems further away than ever - The Conversation
If Arafat wasn’t serious about negotiations, why sit down at all and risk his position in the PLO? For decades the ‘Three Nos’ stunted any Arab-Israeli diplomacy, and the maximalists still hold sway today as they did then
Israel refused the right of return for Palestinians as a whole, while for decades doing all within their power to boost Jewish immigration, bankroll Aliyah flights, rubber stamp naturalization, and regular ‘missionary’ trips to visit US and European nations - all only for ethnic Jews, and their spouses.
A two-tiered system based on race is hardly a fair deal, especially in a democratic system where your people are denied fair representation whilst Jew from the world over are invited to jump on a plane and become a full citizen after three months
Every offer has been in bad faith, though, designed to be a non-starter so that Israel could claim they tried.
Better check that history video again. It wasn’t Hamas at that table
Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades: Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937, Arab League advocating for Unified State 1948
After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. This is apartheid. Despite this, both Fatah and Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation.
Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
History of peace process - The Intercept
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Small details, I know
They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab. It’s not that they wanted ‘non-arab immigrants’ out, it’s that Zionist Settler Colonialism was quite different from normal immigration. Instead of integration, the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s. Many Palestinians opposed the Zionist Land Purchases and Immigration because of fears they would be forced out of their homes and communities, not because they were Jewish.
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them
Are you talking about the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians? Because that was planned and carried out. There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army.
It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab
If you have sympathy for that argument, what’s the difference with jewish people who want the same? Both wanted to be the first class citizens in their country.
the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s
That’s true, but it’s not different from renters who are forced out after their landlord sells the property. It’s not a ‘nice’ part of humanity, but it’s generally accepted as ‘fair’. Of course it’s true that most zionist immigrants had no plans to integrate with non-jews. Partly because of their own religious backwardness, partly because they moved there specifically to escape religious oppression.
There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army
There certainly was: Nebi Musa riots; 1929 Palestine Riots; etc. certainly showed the intent of many Palestinian Arabs to put an ethnic cleansing on the jews.
You’re quite wrong if you don’t think the ALA or others didn’t go in with the same intent. You should look up their logo or statements from their organizers prior to their attack. The only reason one side won is because the other side lost
They said they would accept 1967 borders in their 2017 charter, so it’s been done before. It was also less antisemitic than their previous charter. I think they’re trying to be less extreme and more flexible to get more recruitment maybe, but that’s just my guess.
4 or 5 other times it was offered and every time it was shot down by the PA because either it wasn’t from the river to the sea or all jews have to leave.
It was never about sharing, it was about keeping it all to themselves.
They’ve publicly held this position for nearly 20 years now. When they publicly adopted it and got elected as the new Palestinian Authority because of it, Israel immediately declared war and prevented them taking power.
Well, they did fuck around and find out. Now they are facing an existential threat of their own and suddenly reasonable?
Funny how that works
Hamas has lied about peace and democracy in the past. They became the state of Palestine by winning an election in which they promised to stop attacks on civilians and be democratic, then refusing to hold an election for 2 decades.
Israel is a genocidal regime and needs to be stopped. But that doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. A long-term solution can’t include the current governments of either Israel or Palestine.
Hamas won an election in 2007, which no other country accepted the results of. Israel responded with a blockade. Not saying they’re the good guys but it’s not like it’s a level playing field.
What! They “won” an election that nobody outside HAMAS found legitimate??? And then the country they promise to exterminate reacted? No way!?!?!?!?
Don’t let facts get in your way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
International observers noted that the elections, for the most part, were conducted fairly and in accordance with international standards.
There were some reports of voter obstruction - caused by Israel.
Yes also don’t forget that Fatah immediately led a coup against them, with public support and arms from Israel and support from US.
Quite a long term they have, 17 years and counting.
I thought we don’t accept the results of the election?
Immediately after the election, Fatah, with US and Israeli support dismissed the Hamas government, which Hamas obviously disagreed with.
At this point there’s a stalemate where we (the West) and Fatah don’t recognize the Hamas government and Hamas can’t call an election because they have not officially governed.
Nothing is stopping them from holding another election. There’s clearly a desire for one, since Hamas has violently quelled dissent in the past.
The fact of the matter is that Hamas is looking out for Hamas, and that they haven’t held elections in 14 years heavily underscores that.
To be absolutely clear, Israel is still the greater evil here. But that doesn’t mean that Hamas isn’t an authoritarian dictatorship either.
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’
-Article 7 of Hamas’ founding charter
They were founded to kill Jews and push them out of Palestine. They’re not righteous freedom fighters.
“Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr
They’re just as genocidal as Israel has been as of late, they just lack the same capability Israel does.
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990’s, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
No I don’t support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.
Thanks for the links, I’ll give this a read later today.
I think that person you’re replying to’s point is they won’t be able to recruit at the same right without the huge group of angry, oppressed people that Israel keeps producing. They’ll wither away out off non-relevance.
Hamas exists because it and Islamic Jihad are the militant wings of The Muslim Brotherhood, a group founded in WWII as unit of the Waffen-SS Afrikakorp.
Their goal was and always has been the death of every single Jew on the planet.
Holy misinformation batman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood in the city of Ismailia in March 1928 along with six workers of the Suez Canal Company, as a Pan-Islamic, religious, political, and social movement.
They were opposed to colonialism, both in the form of British occupation and the threat of Zionism - the direct result of which we’re seeing today.
They did side with the axis powers in WW2, but we’ve seen that elsewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army - the logic being that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Also,
al-Banna and other members of the Brotherhood voiced admiration for aspects of Nazi ideology, including its militarism and its centralization revolving around a charismatic leader but opposed others like its racial policies and ethnic nationalism.
At this point we can’t say the same about Israel given it is entirely founded on ethnic nationalism.
Exactly. I can’t understand why** people clutch their pearls at brown people siding with the Axis while accepting as an unfortunate side story the same thing from, say, Finland and nationalists in the Baltics or Ukraine.
Fuck Nazis but let’s be consistent in our standards about it.
**I mean, I can understand what racism is.
HAMAS exists to exterminate Isreal and its inhabitants. Their offer is ‘free Palestine, let us be the dominant political party, and let us form and official national army, then we chill for 5 years! Don’t worry what we might do after that!’
Hamas isn’t going to just die out if they win. Isreal would be suicidal if they agreed to the ‘deal’.
Hamas ran in the 2006 election under a completely different name, in an effort to demonstrate that they can in fact separate themselves from their militant faction.
Remember, Israel also had its origins in armed struggle (against the British).
Edit: although this is probably Israeli projection, given that the armed factions did become the Israeli military. And we all know what they’re up to.
Oke, and Israel exists to exterminate Palestinians and other arabs in their holy quest for greater Israel. Why is Israel continuing to settle the West Bank if Hamas is the big bad?
Gotta love the wording in this article “Hamas, which is committed to the destruction of Israel…”
It’s because the “state” of Israel is inseparable from a military blockade that imposes a starvation regime and illegally settles lands in the West Bank in direct defiance of the UN. It’s like saying I’m committed to the destruction of the US because I’m committed to ending criminal wars of aggression, unconstitutional mass surveillance, and a prison system with 2 million residents.
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”
Made up tripe should be treated as such, and people who believe in any kind of religious doctrine are delusion and deranged. We shouldn’t trust religious people with positions of authority or power, look at where this has gotten humanity.
Fully agree.
And to be crystal clear - that applies across all religions. It’s all bullshit and none of it should influence people in positions of power in any government.
I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they’re not sharing it with anybody, or if they do, it’ll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US. They just want the Palestinians to eventually fade away. Violent groups like Hamas just help them more than anything because it gets Israelis riled up and gives their military an excuse to go in and carve out even more territory, so I’m sure they don’t even care about this, they’re like, “Why would we want you to lay down your arms?”
I think Israeli leadership has already made the decision that all of that region is their land and they’re not sharing it with anybody
Left unchecked, this is only going to be the beginning.
Jordan condemns far-right Israeli minister over “Greater Israel” map
Jordan accused far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich of violating the peace agreement between the two countries after he gave a speech in Paris at a podium featuring a map that included Jordan and the occupied West Bank as part of Israel and said the Palestinian people were “an invention.”
https://currentaffairs.adda247.com/greater-israel-map/
The term “Greater Israel“ has been a contentious and debated concept related to the State of Israel and its territorial boundaries. This article explores the controversial idea of a “Greater Israel” and the various interpretations surrounding it. The concept of a “Greater Israel”, according to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, is a Jewish State stretching “from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”
And they pretend to be outraged when they hear “from the river to the sea.”
That map is disgusting.
it’ll be smaller reservations, similar to American Indian reservations in the US.
The genocide of Native Americans happened when the world was less civilized, people as a whole were less aware and more disconnected. Allowing genocide in any era is unacceptable, it shouldn’t happen now.
“Best we can do is value menu holocaust.”
Even that they are failing hard at. Despite all the unimaginable cruelty and choicest Western weaponry, all they have succeeded in is causing utter destruction and wholesale slaughter; they have neither decisively defeated Hamas or broken the resolve of a people they have blockaded more or less since 1967. What a bunch of losers.
With them on top of that new state? There will never be peace as long as Netanyahu and Hamas are in power. They all need to go
Unfortunately, in a recent poll 80% of israeli said that israel should take into consideration the suffering of civilians. Only less than 2% said they believed the IDF is using too much fire power. I think there is a deeper issue with people’s sentiments.
It’s interesting how you select one person from the israeli government but all of Hamas.
Hamas is far more peaceful than israel. They have proven this in 2018 with their peaceful march. The problem is that israel does not respond to words.
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Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who’s land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.
This isn’t a both sides argument, as western media tries again and again to frame every fucking story. This is the oppressed fighting back.
Terrorist labels aren’t used for armed forces protecting settlers as they rampage Palestinian villages. Terrorist labels aren’t used as hospitals are leveled. Terrorist labels aren’t used when they drop leaflets to tell civilians to move to a place to avoid getting shelled and then SHELLING that place. Terrorist labels aren’t used when a large percentage of children of a whole People grow up without parents because of mass murder. Terrorism isnt used for the decades of genocide. Decades.
Terrorist labels get used when those children become adults and respond how most of us would respond to the conditions of the open air prison in which they reside and will likely die early. Why on earth would you expect them to be peaceful?
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And why haven’t they had an election in 18 years? Because they are a subjugated people and Israel won’t allow elections.
There are no good sides here, but that’s a particularly bad gotcha argument.
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Living under an Apartheid State with no human or civil rights, subjected to violence Occupying Force on a daily basis, is not ‘having a border with them’
Edit:
To clarify, my point is that free and fair elections are impossible under an Apartheid Regime.
Hamas certainly tortures and kills political rivals, and has been exposed for corruption. In addition, Fatah is also corrupt, seen as working at the behest of Israel at the expense of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Both have been funded by Israel as part of a Divide and Conquer tactic. Israel also has a long history of assassinating more moderate and leftist political Palestinian rivals.
Hamas Victory Driven By Desire To End Corruption WPO
Hamas Political Violence in Gaza - HRW 2009
Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty
Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry - Amnesty
Palestinians furious and fed up with corruption of Abbas’s ‘mafia’ PA - MEE
“Divide and Rule”: How Israel Helped Start Hamas to Weaken Palestinian Hopes for Statehood - DemocracyNow
Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations – review - The Guardian
If they were so in favor of Elections how come Hamas is the ones who cracked down on all those Palestinian protests the previous summer?
Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who’s land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Because Netanyahu is not Israel and Hamas is not Palestine. Why do I not name Hamas leader? Maybe cause it’s not common knowledge since they hide in Egypt and Jordan, in their villas and don’t come out except to bomb malls and steal humanitarian supplies meant for Gaza.
But seriously why are you defending terrorists? I’m not defending Netanyahu, I’m saying he needs to be gone.
I’d love to see your thoughts if you’d been in the area to experience Hamas’ “peace” on October 7th.
Why would I visit an apartheid regime that colonizes stolen land?
I certainly hope you’re not an American and have never been to the United States, because I’ve got some unfortunate news about who that land properly belongs to.
Are Americans actively being resisted against by the people they are occupying or has there been a peace treaty somewhere?
I wonder.
The charter of Likud says
Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
so let’s see if Israel chooses security or expansion this time. Every other time they have chosen expansion and a Greater Israel, but hopefully they choose peace this time.
Can indepent mean independent from Hamas (which was basically crafted by Israel)?
According to the definitions of the words yes it can
I don’t think they would, but I certainly support testing this claim.
dude LET’S GO
Pre 1967 borders.
Youd have better odds of me shitting out a herd of albino rabid kittens than Israel ever agreeing to those terms.
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sounds good
Update: it was rejected.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Al-Hayya, a high-ranking Hamas official who has represented the Palestinian militants in negotiations for a cease-fire and hostage exchange, struck a sometimes defiant and other times conciliatory tone.
Speaking to the AP in Istanbul, Al-Hayya said Hamas wants to join the Palestine Liberation Organization, headed by the rival Fatah faction, to form a unified government for Gaza and the West Bank.
The Palestinian Authority hopes to establish an independent state in the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza — areas captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.
Al-Hayya denied a permanent move of the group’s main political office is in the works and said Hamas wants to see Qatar continue in its capacity as mediator in the talks.
Al-Hayya also implicitly threatened that Hamas would attack Israeli or other forces who might be stationed around a floating pier the U.S. is scrambling to build along Gaza’s coastline to deliver aid by sea.
He denied that Hamas militants had targeted civilians during the attacks — despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary — and said the operation succeeded in its goal of bringing the Palestinian issue back to the world’s attention.
The original article contains 1,167 words, the summary contains 190 words. Saved 84%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Great news, too bad israel has zero interest in a Palestinian state nor peace. Israel wants to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians and expand their Lebensraum That much has been fully proven over the last six months.
With Biden sending 26 Billion dollars to reimburse all the costs of this Genocide, without strings attached, it’s clear that the path forward for israel is to now fully commit to their Gaza Holocaust.
The “genocide” would halt immediately if Hamas returned the hostages and surrendered themselves. Hamas has zero interest in that, and the Palestinians have zero interest in that.
No israel has only said they will do a 6 week temporary pause and then continue the Genocide your claim is false.
This article is more than 2 months old - Netanyahu rejects Gaza ceasefire deal and says victory is ‘within reach’
Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the terms of a ceasefire in Gaza proposed by Hamas and rebuffed US pressure to move more quickly towards a mediated settlement to the war, saying there could be no solution to Israel’s security issues except “absolute victory” over the militant group.
Furthermore israel is currently also committing Genocide in the West Bank. Do you blame Hamas and hostages for that too?
I stand corrected. Makes sense if you’re close to wiping them out. Otherwise you go back to the previous situation.
Do you have evidence for a genocide in the West Bank? Thought not.
More than 2 months old
Yeah they’re real close. Just a few more years and they’ll get there.
Israel just committed Genocide in a hospital in north-Gaza which they claimed to have already conquered because Hamas popped up. So even the areas they claimed to have under control were not under control.
Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit
It must be difficult to stay in control with the tactics Hamas use, not caring at all about civilian lives, using human shields, suicide bombs, fighting from civilians buildings etc.
The IDF probably knows far more about that than we do
So you’re still defending IDF and israel now that all of the Hasbara got debunked.
So you’re still defending jihadists and their supporters
Wat?
The genocide has been on-going in slow motion for decades, so there’s not chance in hell that Israel would stop, no matter what Hamas does. It’s baked into the country’s political system: It can’t have a one-state solution and remain a Jewish ethno-state, and it can’t have a two-state solution because the settlers are a vital part of the governing coalition. The only solution that Israeli politics can allow is to remove the people of Palestine. I’m sure they’d be happy with ethnic cleansing, but no other country can practically take in that many refugees, so the final solution is to simply kill them, which the IDF has shown no hesitation to do.
Oct 7th would’ve never happened if israel didn’t treat the Palestinians like human animals. If your excuse they hide terrorists whats your excuse for how they treat Palestinians in the west Bank where hamas isn’t a thing?
ISF reported 305 shooting attacks committed in or emanating from the West Bank in 2022, more than triple the attacks (91) recorded in 2021. In press reports, Israeli officials described these incidents as terror attacks
Hamas may not be based in the West Bank but other Islamic terrorists certainly are, and Hamas is certainly widely supported there.
Where do you live? How would you treat neighbouring countries that rocket attacked you constantly and wanted you wiped out in the name of their religion?
If anything Israel showed significant restraint prior to October
come to another persons land
steal their land and homes
kill their children and rape their women
humiliate their people
surprised pickachu face when they get radicalized and fight back
I dont endorse the extreme actions of hamas or any other group. But lets get something straight are you saying that all the oppression Palestinians face can be explained away by extremeist groups? Do you reject all the accounts of human rights organizations which have documented the plight of the Palestinians? And do you condemn the actions of israel?
It’s a tragedy whats happening to civilians in Palestine. Hamas needs to be destroyed and I hope Israel can minimise further collateral damage. (Though it must be exceptionally difficult with the tactics Hamas use)
But I hold the jihadist organisation Hamas (that still has widespread support) fully responsible for this tragedy, as I would hold the Nazis responsible for German civilian deaths.
So why extend the destruction to hamas who commits extremists actions but not israel?
Hamas butchered innocent civilians. They’re ruthless and evil. The IDF is butchering innocent civilians. They’re also ruthless and evil. There’s no good side to this.
That’s a false equivalence. Sure, there are extremist actions which you can point to. But to completely omit that it was the Palestinians people which were expelled from their land and massacred is disingenuous.
You say this as if the Jews weren’t expelled from their home and massacred.
The Palestinians pushed the Jews out before too. People have been fighting over the land for almost as long as people have been growing crops.
The Palestinians are the natives. Most have cannanite DNA. Palestinians aren’t just the Arabs/muslims but also include jews and Christians that have lived for as long. Jews who came from EU have no claim to the land
