• JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    Lol. This is the party they want to replace ‘genocide joe’ with. Well done, kids!

    • HopeOfTheGunblade@kbin.social
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      6 months ago

      Yes but see, if we just sit on our hands and don’t vote we won’t have any responsibility for what follows! Only voting for someone who is less than ideal on this issue is a morally bad choice!

      • StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        I totally understand the point most of them are trying to make and agree with the sentiment, but they’re fucking morons. 100% absolute jibbering idiots.

        This is an ugly binary choice here because the United States electoral system is a steaming pile of horse shit. Do what I, your friendly neighborhood lefty, am doing and swallow your pride and vote for center right Joe Biden because he’s leagues better than the dementia-addled, fascist Cheeto Benito. Then take all the disgust you’ve built up by voting for and living with another neoliberal corporate shill presidency and work your ass off to make sure we don’t have to keep voting between Dumb and Dumber every fucking election.

        Do it because we’ll only be gently tiptoeing to the right under a Biden presidency, so it’s less likely you’ll end up in jail for discussing the “wrong” political ideology while that orange shitstained merkin would have me in jail just for writing this were it up to him. Don’t make it up to him.

        • kescusay@lemmy.worldM
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          6 months ago

          Every time I encounter the “don’t vote” brigade, my first thought is that it’s a Russian or Chinese troll trying to get Trump elected again.

          My second thought, which is a bit more nuanced, is some introspection on what Biden is actually doing. He has three options with regards to Israel, none of them good.

          1. He could deny them weapons, which would inevitably lead to outright war with Iran and an increase in Russian influence in the region, as well as a loss of an ally.
          2. He could fully commit to Netanyahu’s madness (i.e., what Trump wants to do), fully empowering genocide while using no political leverage on Israel. This would also ultimately lead to broad regional warfare, which will also likely increase Russian influence in the region.
          3. He could try to limit the damage by imposing conditions on weapons sales and attempt to thread the needle, recognizing Hamas for the grotesque terrorist organization it is while using political pressure to prevent as much needless death of civilians as possible. This is what Biden is trying to do.

          I don’t know that Biden is doing a very good job with #3, but #1 would be a catastrophe, and #2 is what Trump wants.

          This is a shitty situation in every conceivable way. Our ally, Israel, is currently being run by a corrupt and genocidal freak. There are no good answers to a situation like that beyond Israel coming to its senses and throwing Netanyahu in prison. But there are plenty of really bad answers, and Trump would be the worst.

          • JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            I just want to say that there’s probably a large contingent of kids who are happy doing nothing because they’re not happy with the choices, while the conservatives proceed and reelect that orange turd back into office. If you’re American, vote like your libertt depends on it, because it likely does.

          • beardown@lemm.ee
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            6 months ago

            He could deny them weapons, which would inevitably lead to outright war with Iran and an increase in Russian influence in the region

            Why?

            He could fully commit to Netanyahu’s madness (i.e., what Trump wants to do), fully empowering genocide while using no political leverage on Israel.

            Biden is doing this - he is threatening the ICC and ICJ

            He could try to limit the damage by imposing conditions on weapons sales and attempt to thread the needle, recognizing Hamas for the grotesque terrorist organization it is while using political pressure to prevent as much needless death of civilians as possible. This is what Biden is trying to do.

            Biden is not doing this. We have not stopped weapon shipments and have clearly been unable (more like unwilling) to stop or prevent Israel’s genocide

            Also, Israel is not our ally. Their geopolitical interests align with Putin. Which is why they are trying to get Trump elected so that they can destroy the remnants of the “rules based international order” and begin in earnest their conquest of Greater Israel

            • kescusay@lemmy.worldM
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              6 months ago

              Why?

              Because Iran is a Russian ally and Russian proxy.

              Biden is doing this - he is threatening the ICC and ICJ

              No, he isn’t. Where in the world are you getting the idea that he’s literally “threatening” either?

              Biden is not doing this. We have not stopped weapon shipments and have clearly been unable (more like unwilling) to stop or prevent Israel’s genocide

              Dude, we temporarily halted shipments earlier this month to put pressure on Netanyahu. Were you sleeping?

              Also, Israel is not our ally. Their geopolitical interests align with Putin. Which is why they are trying to get Trump elected so that they can destroy the remnants of the “rules based international order” and begin in earnest their conquest of Greater Israel

              Netanyahu’s interests may align with Putin, but only insofar as both seem hell-bent on destabilizing the region. Putin would gladly let Iran stroll right into Israel and slaughter everyone in it. Israel’s own actual interests do not remotely align with Putin’s.

              • beardown@lemm.ee
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                6 months ago

                Because Iran is a Russian ally and Russian proxy.

                Yes, but why does that mean stopping US weapons shipments to Israel would cause Iran to invade/attack/etc? Israel has a huge weapons stockpile and is still a Western ally - they just happen to be committing genocide with American funds and bombs.

                Where in the world are you getting the idea that he’s literally “threatening” either?

                https://www.ft.com/content/6700a246-e0cd-49d8-b5ef-d2379e86290f

                “The administration of President Joe Biden will work with Congress on possible sanctions against the International Criminal Court after its prosecutor announced it was seeking arrest warrants for senior Israeli and Hamas officials, US secretary of state Antony Blinken said on Tuesday.”

                we temporarily halted shipments earlier this month to put pressure on Netanyahu

                We resumed those shipments and funds, and Israel has since crossed Biden’s red line and attacked Rafah

                Netanyahu’s interests may align with Putin

                Netanyahu/Likud are dictators who control Israel. Until he/they are removed, their interests are Israel’s interests. Which means that Israel is a Russian asset with a stranglehold on American funds thanks to AIPAC

                • davidagain@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  I’d just like to remind you folks the headline you’re debating under:

                  Nikki Haley writes ‘finish them’ on IDF artillery shells during Israel visit

                  • beardown@lemm.ee
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                    6 months ago

                    Biden/Dems sent the genocide bombs and Haley/Republicans autographed them.

                    I’m not sure how that improves things

      • JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        So you’re saying if I vote, I’ll be complicit and won’t have anything to complain or blame others about, and have to take responsibility for the consequence of my vote? Fuck that shit!

        • HopeOfTheGunblade@kbin.social
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          6 months ago

          I don’t think I said that. Can you show me where I did?

          I will say that you have a slice of responsibility over the future, and you’ll have to live with the consequences of whatever decision you end up making - including the one where you sit on your hands. No matter what you do, you can still complain about it, but the future will be whichever one we collectively steer to. One of those possible futures is worse than the other. So it seems to me that we should steer away from it, rather than wrong our hands about how we don’t like the choices. Sure, you don’t like the choices. They’re the choices regardless. Model the outcomes of each possibility, decide which one you hate the least and steer towards it, because we are getting a future selected from among the possibilities. Jesus is not going to rapture us out of this.

          • JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            Forgot the /s. But the kids seem to believe that sitting it out in protest is better than voting the lesser of 2 evils. This is how a dictator comes into power. Agree with everything you said.

            • HopeOfTheGunblade@kbin.social
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              6 months ago

              Yeah, I’ve been having this argument a lot lately, so the sarcasm shit right past me. It’s exhausting trying to get people to understand that no, really, genocide a * 3 plus additional genocide b is worse than genocide a alone.

      • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        You do realize that “less than ideal” is probably an inadequate way to describe Joe funding a genocidal apartheid, right?

        It’s astonishing to me how comfortable you are with fascism, provided it wears a blue jersey.

        • HopeOfTheGunblade@kbin.social
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          6 months ago

          Yes. Humans are given to certainty and judgement in excess of what the evidence merits, so I have taken to understatement.

          I’m not convinced that Joe Biden is fascism, though. Would you be so kind as to compare him to Umberto eco’s list, and share examples on each point? Trump seems like a much better match to that, but perhaps I have missed something.

    • eestileib@sh.itjust.works
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      6 months ago

      I’m gonna vote for Biden if I have to rise from the dead and crawl through broken glass to do so, and I hope everyone reading this thread does.

      I’m not willing to pretend he’s not facilitating an ongoing genocide though.

      • JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Oh get out of here with your facts. The kids are having a circlejerk. They weren’t born at the time. They can’t be expected to know these things.

      • DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social
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        6 months ago

        Oh, he’s just following orders!

        It’s not like we have other laws requiring you not to support genocide for this exact situation that he can use to halt arms shipments.

      • XeroxCool@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        What is that law? Closest I think I can get is HR 4986 sec 227 which mentions Israel, but I can’t read further. Who put it in place?

        • davidagain@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          From the linked politico article,

          Legally, the U.S. can’t cut Israel off completely. Since 2008, the U.S. has had to weigh all arms sales to Israel and other countries in the region against the requirement that Israel maintains a “qualitative military edge” against all enemies, both state and non-state actors.

          In 2008, George W. Bush was in his second term as president.

          • XeroxCool@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            Yes, Bush was the president for most of 2008. Obama got a short portion, although the exact president in place doesn’t necessarily tell you if they agreed anyway. Since president’s don’t really write law, I was looking for the exact law to see the history of which representatives were pushing it. I wanted to see what the angle was for that piece of the bill and what else was attached to it. Nothing gets passed as an individual law, meaning it was probably a rider in a much larger group of laws that likely made it a non-negotiable requirement bundled into a more pressing matter.

            But I guess 9+ people read my simple question as total contempt for the situation.

            • idiomaddict@feddit.de
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              6 months ago

              Obama was inaugurated in January 2009, though he was elected in 2008, so it’s easy to confuse.

    • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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      6 months ago

      Tankies don’t show up to forums about headlines they can’t cram into their preordained propaganda forms.

    • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Yeah, those stupid kids should just realize that one constant in America is that we kill or enable the killing of children. They should just accept that children will be killed in their name and get over themselves like us grown ups.

    • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      No, it isn’t.

      We want to replace Genocide Joe with the Greens.

      Unfortunately most American voters lack a conscience, so it’s not going to happen.

      • TheLowestStone@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Unfortunately most American voters lack a conscience, so it’s not going to happen.

        If you actually want to attract people to your cause, you may want to consider changing your tone. It could also be beneficial to mention some positive things about the candidate that you recommend instead of just bashing the current regime.

        • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          I’m shouting into the void and I know it. Nothing I do or say will change anything.

          I can look at the last 40 years and be astonished at how little American voters care about their own welfare, and rest assured that the election in November will likely be 49% to 49%, because for some reason they all are just exceptionally well-programmed to vote for the candidates that the wealthy want them to vote for. All of them are poorer now, both economically and socially, than they were even just ten years ago. They can see with their own two eyes that they get poorer no matter which party we elect, and it doesn’t stop them from voting solely on team color anyway.

          Hell, the Democrats had Marianne Williamson, an anti-war, pro-living wage, pro-universal health care candidate who can actually form a coherent thought in their primary. They decided overwhelmingly that they wanted the old, addled warmonger to be their president, even though he’s done nothing meaningful to try and fix their poverty, opting to spend his time keeping his scumbag son out of prison and the war money flowing to other countries.

      • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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        6 months ago

        Lmao, comment more.

        You’re definitely not making yourself look like you need live-in nursing care to wipe your ass.

        You’re also making really REALLY good, logical fair points and you’re totally not moving the goalposts.

        Take your bad faith ba to .ml or hexbear, you troglodyte.

      • treadful
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        6 months ago

        K

        Talking to reporters, Haley was unapologetic, criticising Joe Biden’s administration for temporarily withholding weapons as a means of discouraging an Israeli attack on the southern Gaza city of Rafah, and aiming barbs at the international criminal court (ICC) – which is seeking Netanyahu’s arrest – and the international court of justice (ICJ), which is considering charges of genocide against Israel.

        “What America needs to understand is if Israel’s fighting our enemies, how can we not help them,” said Haley, whose missile message also carried the words “America loves Israel”.

        “The sure way to not help Israel is to withhold weapons. The sure way to not help Israel is to praise the ICC, the ICJ or any of those that are condemning Israel instead of condemning what happens.

        “America needs to do whatever Israel needs and stop telling them how to fight this war. You are either a friend or not a friend.”

        • Bananigans@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          6 months ago

          “America needs to do whatever Israel needs and stop telling them how to fight this war. You are either a friend or not a friend.”

          She reminds me of an alcoholic friend I had in college. Telling you to stop doesn’t mean I hate you. It means you’re making bad decisions.

      • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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        6 months ago

        Propagandists are so funny. It’s like…. You make shit up that can’t be proven, verified, or is otherwise even remotely realistic, and then you pretend it’s real to the point that you’re willing to argue it online with total strangers.

        It’s blows my mind how this is done.

          • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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            6 months ago

            I never said he was a great candidate. I simply said that propagandists seem to have it out for Biden.

            Surprising they’re always silent with their criticism of anything from the right.

            Ever wonder why?

              • davidagain@lemmy.world
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                6 months ago

                But you really don’t know that there are no non choir members reading. I think the proportion of right wingers on the fediverse has shot up in the last year.

                • mightyfoolish@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  No, I don’t. But we don’t have proof either way. Conservatives usually get a type of sickness if everyone around them does not think the same way.

                  Hopefully, Halely self reflects and figures out why she is a running [get it] joke. But let’s be real, she’ll probably never change.

            • beardown@lemm.ee
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              6 months ago

              Everyone on this site thinks that the GOP of 2024 is a fascist party and that Trump is worse than Biden

              • Honytawk
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                6 months ago

                Too many Russian bots and tankies for that to be true

      • aleph@lemm.ee
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        6 months ago

        I’m not defending Biden, but the view that Trump would be any less prepared to keep sending Israel weapons is utterly baseless. He wouldn’t even pretend to care about the Palestinians, for one thing.

      • No_Change_Just_Money@feddit.de
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        6 months ago

        Ok, but Trump literally said he deports anybody who protests Israel

        How is this better than Joe, who says that Isreal will lose us support if they don’t stop and prioritize civilian safety in their attacks?

      • brbposting@sh.itjust.works
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        6 months ago

        Joe Biden is a lot more efficient at getting weapons Israel needs for their genocide than Trump ever will be.

        Anybody out there who can vet this? Cuz if I wanted a twice-impeached president victory I think I would post:

        45 is a lot more efficient at getting weapons Israel needs for their genocide than Biden ever will be.

        • rayyy@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          Joe Biden is a lot more efficient at getting weapons Israel needs for their genocide than Trump ever will be

          ^^ That is a heaping pile of BULLSHIT.

        • AWildMimicAppears@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          6 months ago

          the point is not to make more people vote trump (everyone who is morally bankrupt enough will do that anyway)

          the point is FUD, so that biden voters stay home (good for trump) or vote 3rd party (which would be valid if it weren’t a first past the post system)

          • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            6 months ago

            The point might actually be to sink Biden’s approval rating so low that he’s forced to reverse course on the specific thing making him unpopular and less likely to win.

        • JimSamtanko@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          Russia only cares about two of them. One of them is reliant on a Trump victory, and the other is to ensure it happens.