All you have to do to realize that this is a terrorist attack is to close your eyes and imagine the media response if Hezbolah did this to the IDF.
Fucking this is not hard.
Either that is illegal, or the Unibomber was just.
Yes. But do pants! That would be fun…
ok sir your shoes go in this bin. We want your pants, underwear and belt in that other one. Those will be returned to you after the flight reaches Michigan…
Oh. We’re sorry sir, your luggage is here, but your pants, belt and underwear were flown to Michoacan. Very common occurrence. You may take this pair of paper pants with our Logo while we wait for several connection flights for your belongings…
A different analysis from an expert in international law. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/exploding-pagers-law/
Thanks for sharing this. My gut reaction is that that these attacks were unreasonable and careless in who they impacted and should be criminal. But it’s very interesting to read an analysis of the actual law - even if I don’t agree with it
It comes to the same conclusion regarding the illegality of the weapons, even if it’s pretty lenient in its interpretation of how thousands of devices can be “reasonably expected” to all end up in the hands of combatants.
Israel:
seen ✓✓
From my cold, dead hands!
BattleBots? Is that DoomBot?
Doomba
Damnit I knew it was Doom something was trying to recall purely from memory
Encrypted communications equipment purchased for military use are not ordinary devices, and under international law if a device is used for military transmissions it is a valid target and can be attacked.
under international law if a device is used for military transmissions it is a valid target and can be attacked.
I think this means that if an Israeli sells you a phone, they become a valid target for military strikes.
Many were not used by the military and the explosions happened during the day in uncontrolled circumstances. Many civilians got hurt.
Honestly, the real question to me is how many innocent people were maimed, injured, or killed in this attack. This is incredibly indiscriminate, even though the idea is that only the bad guys are holding the pages or walkie-talkies, but if they’re in a cafe they’re not the only ones getting hurt. Think of it as attaching an explosive to a thousand Hezbollah people, and then exploding them as they wander through a city. That’s the true crime, the potentially disproportionate massacre of innocent civilians.
Agree, I am incredibly disturbed by the nature of this attack and the implications for how other countries might use this idea.
Honestly, the real question to me is how many innocent people were maimed, injured, or killed in this attack.
Quite a bit fewer than 0.1% of the individual detonations appear to have harmed anyone except the Hezbollah operative assigned to the pager, so this doesn’t actually appear to be a question. The attack was extremely discriminate and targeted.
but if they’re in a cafe they’re not the only ones getting hurt.
In every case in which one of these went off in a cafe, the intended target was the only one hurt.
That’s the true crime, the potentially disproportionate massacre of innocent civilians.
But that isn’t what happened. The opposite happened.
Ok, I’m sure it’s all as you say. 5 days old account that is totally not suspicious.
Defending Israel on Lenny leads to banning, it’s happened several times
lol good
Several of the victims were children. They went off in crowds. There was no way they could control that many devices with precision when they set them off all at once like that.
At least it was somewhat targeted, unlike Gaza.
https://x.com/osint613/status/1837614316335648888?s=46
Here’s an example of how targeted the strike was, despite literally going off in a crowd - nobody hurt but the intended target, no harm whatsoever beyond two feet. Doesn’t even bruise an apple
The mental gymnastics people will do to defend literal state sponsored terrorism.
And don’t waste your time, I actually know what those words mean.
Yes, it’s pretty shocking how people have come out in support of an Iranian-funded terrorist group that has killed women, children, and a hundred Americans
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Try harder.
That particular pager was in a bag, against a person, pointed away from anyone or anything else. Not to mention anything of the second attack, which used much larger charges and started fires and blew out windows across Lebanon.
And anyway, a single example isn’t going to assuage anyone who has been reading reports of women and children dying from the attack.
They’re also ignoring the literal terror being experienced by civilians who witnessed people’s legs and faces being blown off in public.
That’s terrorism.
That particular pager was in a bag, against a person, pointed away from anyone or anything else.
Where else would you carry a pager? You have to feel it when it vibrates.
Not to mention anything of the second attack, which used much larger charges and started fires and blew out windows across Lebanon.
Well, I’m sorry to hear that Lebanon’s glazers just got several months of guaranteed work, I guess, but I’m otherwise not sure why this is relevant.
And anyway, a single example isn’t going to assuage anyone who has been reading reports of women and children dying from the attack.
What reports?
I’m otherwise not sure why this is relevant.
Because you were claiming the explosions were too small to “bruise and apple”
What reports?
Because you were claiming the explosions were too small to “bruise and apple”
ok, and how is that refuted by the physical description of an ambulance?
Several of the victims were children.
The fathers of these dead children will simply have to live with the terrible consequences of their involvement with antisemitic terror (who are we kidding, they don’t care.)
They went off in crowds.
In every such case only the agent was harmed. You’re proving how targeted the attack was.
The fathers of these dead children will simply have to live with the terrible consequences of their involvement with antisemitic terror
So the children have to pay for their father’s crimes? This isn’t really a justification, and they don’t not care, now they have a real reason for retaliation—starting the cycle of hate all over again.
So the children have to pay for their father’s crimes?
No, they don’t have to. But they will when their fathers deliberately put them in danger.
Again, he’ll just have to live with the tragic consequences (just kidding, we know he doesn’t care.)
And you complain about pro Israel accounts getting banned. Literally justifying the murder of children should be banable no matter what county you’re supporting. Despicable behavior that everyone now sadly expects from rabid genocide supporters.
I’m not justifying the murder of anyone. I’m informing you as to with whom the moral responsibility lies: Hezbollah and its inhuman terrorist sons of bitches. It shouldn’t be a “bannable offense” to have moral clarity, but this is no place for free discussion, after all. It’s an echo chamber of hating Jews.
The kid’s blood is still on whoever triggered the devices hands. The child didn’t do anything.
Do you have a source stating that no bystanders were harmed? I can’t find anything making that claim.
Do you have a source stating that no bystanders were harmed?
They keep citing a tweet while others keep refuting what they’re saying with articles from BBC, NPR, and other news outlets. There’s no point in arguing with someone that can’t provide reputable sources for their claims.
*Edit: typo
But they have a video of a single incident!
Removed by mod
First article I pulled up:
Many, but not all, of the pagers and walkie-talkies that unexpectedly blew up over two days across Lebanon and in some neighboring countries were in the possession of Hezbollah fighters, functionaries or allies. In this photo, an ambulance believed to be carrying wounded people drives down a street in a southern suburb of Beirut on September 18, 2024. The ambulance is white with a blue light on top that spans the width of the vehicle. Men stand on the sides of the street, which is lined with buildings. Middle East crisis — explained Another wave of blasts hits Lebanon, as Hezbollah reels from pager explosions
The group is designated as a terrorist organization by several nations, including the United States, but many of its members and supporters operate in civilian areas across Lebanon — and some of the explosions left innocent bystanders, including children, injured or dead.
Not to mention that Hezbollah is an actual political party in Lebanon, not just a resistance group.
Ok, and what does this refute? I haven’t claimed there to be zero civilian casualties, but it’s currently fewer than one in one thousand.
Again, I’ve posted video. Why would I believe that could harm anyone but the bearer?
Says who?
Says Hezbollah, and all reporting from Lebanon.
Source? Not being shitty but serious
Hezbollah publicly announces their war casualties so they’re the source
I don’t know how to explain that any more clearly. If you’re still puzzled, I recommend asking a question instead of posting a single word
They are asking for the source of your statement that less then 0.1% of the victims where valid targets. Since most have seen evidence to the exact opposite of that statement.
Oh and although I can put links to back that statement up, I will not. (Since that is the presiding fashion here apparently)
They are asking for the source of your statement that less then 0.1% of the victims where valid targets
Hezbollah is the source. That’s three times I’ve said so. What about that is still unclear?
All numbers to you eh?
I can’t have sympathy for murderous antisemites
Not murder, by your logic.
They’ve targeted civilians, including 40 people at a US Embassy.
Looks like murders of innocent civilians were done by semites… As it’s most often the case.
A collateral civilian death during a military action has never been considered “murder.” It can’t be, since it’s unintentional.
Just completely ignore the concept of proportional response and the Principle of Proportionality.
If you’re going to pretend to be an expert on international law…
1000 militants per civilian meets every definition of proportionate
There has been quite a lot of collateral civilian casualties, how many more people must die and how many more people must suffer under poverty in the name of the great American empire?
There has been quite a lot of collateral civilian casualties, how many more people must die
None, if Israel’s enemies surrender and end the war. That’s how war works.
puts a minigun on my dryer
come and take it, I dare you
My ied is gonna make me billions. Improvised explosive dildo
moans seductively
explodes
Explosion! Bukkake?
Bukakke?
I’m on mobile and can’t hover a mouse. I’m scared to click that.
Do something about it, then.
The US will veto any action.
It’s them you should be criticizing. It’s always them or Russia/China for the other team.
Oh man this letter is going to be worded so sternly!
Respectfullysubmitted,United Nations
this is the ultimate test of these institutions and their letters just shows they failed.
“This letter is so VIBRANT with EXTREME ANGER that it will explode… but only metaphorically.”
I bet they’re gonna BLAST them! In a literary sense
What is the UN human rights chief supposed to do about it?
He did all that was in his power:
Volker Türk told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council there must be an independent and transparent investigation of the two attacks in Lebanon on Tuesday and Wednesday where these devices exploded, reportedly killing 37 people and injuring more than 3,400 others.
They could all say they are going to disband if Israel doesn’t stop. Why even have the UN if they can’t do anything
Or better yet expel isreal
First of all, that’s also not in his power.
Secondly, how would disbanding the part of the UN that investigates human rights abuses help Palestinians?
Edit: Wait, you think the entire UN should be disbanded over this?
The UN is the only reason we haven’t had a nuclear war yet. Otherwise, countries wouldn’t have a neutral world forum.
No I think the un is mostly useless.
They are united about nothing
That’s not what the UN is for… it’s not a military force… it’s a round table for nations to work their differences out via words and not nuking each other.
People like to criticise the UN but the alternative to having the UN is having no UN. We’d be fucked
We need something more than the UN that has real power to stop Israel’s terror and genocide. The UN can fuck off and prevent it’s theoretical events elsewhere.
How would you react if the UN becomes the world government, so that they would finally have the power to stop wars and hunger that people always complain about?
Precisely.
I may be ok with that depending on the governing structure they came up with for a world government. Like would it be a democracy? Socialism? It really depends lol
But right now it seems very ineffective if America or Israel does something horrible they can just veto or whatever and nothing gets done.
As an American myself I would love it if the UN actually had powers to keep my government in line. they sure as hell don’t listen to the will of the people.
There is no reason why the UN as a world government could not be a democracy. After all, the institution has always been parroting about the rule of law; ending world hunger and poverty; and the UN General Assembly rightfully called out blatant violations of international laws. The WHO is the most successful organisation by containing and eradicating many diseases including smallpox and COVID.
People complain of the UN being powerless, and yet distrustful of giving it more power. Either it has to remain powerless or furnish it with actual power. The doublethink should end and people have to make up their minds.
Edit: grammar
The UN should disband for not stopping Israel, something the US (Biden right now) would stop yet when Biden was criticized you defended him as ‘there was nothing he could do’.
Love Americans and their hypocrisy.
They are…
They’ve had arrest warrants out for a while, but they do t have their own police force to enforce it
It relies on member states arresting them when they enter their country. It why Bibi hasn’t been going anywhere besides America. Biden is one of the few leaders willing to side with Israel over the UN
Aren’t there arrest warrants against George W. Bush from like 20 years ago? This is just more talk that won’t be backed up by any meaningful action because of how trivially easy it is to avoid going to these countries.
You won’t be so smug when people stop buying iPhones.
In one sense this is much worse, and more terrifying than the run-of-the-mill IED’s used by militant groups. Having to be suspicious of everything around you would be maddening. It’s indiscriminate mass psychological warfare, where the collateral damage goes way beyond the people actually carrying the devices.
Imagine if China, Taiwan or Korea would start doing this shit. Or maybe they already have! Maybe the device you are reading this on would explode in the event of war!
In another thread I was also performing that thought experiment, specifically related to the possibility of Chinese hobby drones being banned for national security purposes, while at the same time possibly allowing Chinese made EVs to be sold in America. It’s inconsistent if nothing else. A car would be a much more terrifying IED than a pager. Shame on Israel for showing the world that acts like this are not immediately condemned as acts of terrorism and unanimously rejected as being a bridge too far.
Edit: actually it looks like there may be consistency: https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/china/us-to-propose-ban-on-chinese-software-hardware-in-connected-vehicles/
OK, I’m gonna tell a little story that we used to tell in my part of the country. In my part of the country they grow a lot of watermelons.
So there was this watermelon farmer who got upset that everybody kept sneaking into his fields at night and taking watermelons.
So he came up with his great idea that he put a sign at the edge of the field that said one of these watermelons is poison. Now he knew that no one could take a watermelon cause they wouldn’t know which one was poisoned. He was quite proud of this idea.
So we came back in the morning to see how his sign worked. And sure enough no watermelons have been taken overnight.
However, he noticed the number one on his sign had been crossed out and somebody had put two.
However, he noticed the number one on his sign had been crossed out and somebody had put two.
That is both genius and a total Bond villain origin story.
How is it “indiscriminate” if solely Hezbollah operatives were targeted?
A booby-trapped baby stroller is indiscriminate - it goes off when anyone touches it, friend, foe, or child. Israel attacked the communications of its enemy and literally nothing else. That’s inherently discriminating between friend and foe.
It’s indiscriminate because Israel doesn’t know who is in proximity of the device when it explodes, or even if the target is nearby. It’s no stretch to think one of the targets could have been frisking a journalist or aid worker when their device detonated.
That being said, the “indiscriminate mass psychological warfare” comment I made was about how the effect of blowing up common devices as an act of war will have negative psychological effects on everybody who was nearby and probably even those in Lebanon who were not nearby, and potentially even Lebanese people who were in other countries who have family back in Lebanon.
It’s indiscriminate because Israel doesn’t know who is in proximity of the device when it explodes
But they do know. They know that it’s an agent of Hezbollah, or else they would not have been issued a pager by Hezbollah.
It’s no stretch to think one of the targets could have been frisking a journalist or aid worker when their device detonated.
Ok, but that didn’t happen, so clearly it is a stretch. You’re asserting that Mossad achieved better than 99% target accuracy by accident, but the fact that it’s better than 99% proves it was no accident at all. It was a deliberate and discriminate attack on a terror network responsible for more than 8000 indiscriminate attacks on Israel in this year alone.
Alleged agent of Hezbollah receives the pager. Alleged agent places it on a table at home. Alleged agent’s innocent daughter picks it off the table and uses it as a toy prop. Signal is sent, pager explodes, and kills the daughter.
There’s an plethora of situations that could occur that result in an explosive pager being deployed while in the hands of someone not a Hezbollah agent, and that’s if we take it at face value that Mossad can identify who is and isn’t a Hezbollah agent. Wouldn’t be the first time they’ve been overzealous and killed an innocent person. May they be judged accordingly by their Maker.
Alleged agent of Hezbollah receives the pager. Alleged agent places it on a table at home.
Anybody with access to secure coms knows that they’re not permitted to allow others to access the device, including family members. So your situation is inherently implausible and ultimately comes down to the agent themselves not following the rules, with devastating consequences to their family.
There’s an plethora of situations that could occur
But they didn’t occur. So they couldn’t have occurred.
that’s if we take it at face value that Mossad can identify who is and isn’t a Hezbollah agent.
No, we just have to take it at face value that Hezbollah can identify who is and isn’t a Hezbollah agent. So that they give them a secure pager. Why wouldn’t that be the case?
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Bullshit, unless you’re privy to the internal workings of alleged Hezbollah agents. Where’s your documented proof?
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So you claim that 10 year old girl who died was a Hezbollah agent? I’d sooner think you’re spewing more bullshit.
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See #2.
Removed by mod
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I’ll also propose a counterargument: Mossad, the IDF, and Israeli gov’t in general doesn’t give two shits about collateral damage, how many innocent civilians they kill, and whether or not the intended target is a Hezbollah agent (or Hamas, for that matter). If they kill a thousand innocents for every genuine terrorist, that’s a good day in their book. “Innocent before proven guilty” doesn’t exist in their world view. Guilty by association is.
If that’s not true, they’ve got a lot of work ahead of them to improve their public image. The whole lot of them are no better than the terrorists they claim to be fighting against
Mossad, the IDF, and Israeli gov’t in general doesn’t give two shits about collateral damage
But that’s false. You’re just imagining that.
There wouldn’t still be a war in Gaza if that were the case.
If they kill a thousand innocents for every genuine terrorist, that’s a good day in their book.
Why one? Why not zero?
Don’t you just have to watch out for your Hezbollah-supplied devices?
Also, fat chance they could pull the same thing off again
Yeah, Hezbollah absolutely fired their IT guy after the second time it happened.
It’s Hezbollah. They likely killed him thinking he’s a mole.
People here really have forgotten Hezbollah is also a monstrous group. One monster existing (Israeli government) doesn’t negate the other one existing too (Hezbollah).
Uhm, drones? Hello?
A drone made for warfare is not the same as a dji 3 or whatever. Now if you put a bomb in that dji and sold it to people…
Not to mention the tens of thousands of rockets Hamas made from water pipes, lamp posts, etc.
I’m pretty sure the meaning isn’t that you aren’t allowed to turn an ordinary item into a weapon. It’s that you can weaponize ordinary items. If you make a pipe bomb, for example, it’s pretty obviously a bomb now, and not an ordinary pipe. Basically, making it so people have to fear using ordinary items is what we typically call terrorism.
I don’t like that word, because it’s usually just used as a weapon against less conventional forces by states with more power, meanwhile the states typically still use fear to enforce a political agenda. In this case it’s unarguably the bad kind of terrorism, and they should be held responsible for it.
Are those rockets sold as a water pipe to Israel?
No, they’re indiscriminately fired on civilian populations.
We’re talking double secret probation. Super cereal shit man.
Constantly wringing my hands at the lack of adults in leadership. Accountability ends atrocity.
They weren’t “ordinary devices”, they were encrypted pagers manufactured specifically at Hezbollah’s request for their own use.
